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07-02-2018, 03:35 PM
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#76
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker7
In summary, lasix is no big deal. It is settled science, resisted only by rabid animal rights activists and perpetual gripers. Sure, the truth can be twisted in the media, but so what? Why give into the liars?
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Far from it. Plenty of people are opposed to Lasix that are neither of the two things you categorize them as.
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07-02-2018, 04:15 PM
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clocker7
In summary, lasix is no big deal. It is settled science, resisted only by rabid animal rights activists and perpetual gripers.
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Many Hall of Famer trainers are in favor of phasing out furosemide in U.S. racing.
Unless you characterize Lukas, Pletcher, Bill Mott, Shug McGaughey, Christophe Clement, Richard Mandella, Neil Drysdale, Kieran McLaughlin, and Graham Motion as "rabid animal rights activists and perpetual gripers".
There is also the question of horses that can only run on Lasix may be questionable breeding prospects.
But I doubt any kind of ban will happen any time soon.
When Baffert ran West Coast in the Pegasus he was offered a weight advantage if horse ran w/out lasix. He chose Lasix ---- which pretty much nailed that he believes it is a "performance enhancing drug."
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07-02-2018, 07:40 PM
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#78
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Much ado about nothing.
Yet again we let the drug debate center around something as insignificant as Lasix.
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07-02-2018, 08:33 PM
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#79
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,858
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If it is so insignificant, why do essentially all horses race on it?
Are you suggesting the bleeding rate is about 100%?
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07-03-2018, 01:48 AM
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#80
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
If it is so insignificant, why do essentially all horses race on it?
Are you suggesting the bleeding rate is about 100%?
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Yes, studies prove 90+% of horses bleed. Most presumably not enough to affect their performance noticeably, but bleeding tends to get worse over time, and bleeding severely enough cause permanent scarring of the lungs (which of course makes them bleed worse).
Trainers view this differently. I estimate probably 50% of top trainers use lasix and scope in both training and racing. The other 50% only use lasix in races and scope only if looking for a reason for a poor performance. It’s too expensive to use lasix and scope after all works for the horses at the lower end, since this would total $100 a week just for this and not counting other vet expenses.
I know of no trainer who is really concerned about Lasix.
You made mention that Lasix is only to stop owner bleeding. You maybe meant it snidely, but I don’t think it’s totally untruthful. Imagine if you bought a $40k horse, or a $400k horse, and he’s like Silver Charm. A good horse but a bleeder who is able to be controlled. There was no test for you to determine that he was a bleeder when you bought him, but here’s what you’ve got -a bleeder. Thinking of it non-snidely, how would you feel about there being a simple humane fix but not being able to use it? Would you be happy that this is money flushed? Wouldn’t you prefer an easy fix over your trainer experimenting with herbs and natural dehydration and perhaps other drugs, etc, to try to solve the problem?
There are so many other real issues in racing, real drug cheating, and don’t even get me started on how dirty the sales are, it’s just frustrating that Lasix gets so much ink.
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07-03-2018, 06:29 AM
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
Yes, studies prove 90+% of horses bleed. Most presumably not enough to affect their performance noticeably, but bleeding tends to get worse over time, and bleeding severely enough cause permanent scarring of the lungs (which of course makes them bleed worse).
Trainers view this differently. I estimate probably 50% of top trainers use lasix and scope in both training and racing. The other 50% only use lasix in races and scope only if looking for a reason for a poor performance. It’s too expensive to use lasix and scope after all works for the horses at the lower end, since this would total $100 a week just for this and not counting other vet expenses.
I know of no trainer who is really concerned about Lasix.
You made mention that Lasix is only to stop owner bleeding. You maybe meant it snidely, but I don’t think it’s totally untruthful. Imagine if you bought a $40k horse, or a $400k horse, and he’s like Silver Charm. A good horse but a bleeder who is able to be controlled. There was no test for you to determine that he was a bleeder when you bought him, but here’s what you’ve got -a bleeder. Thinking of it non-snidely, how would you feel about there being a simple humane fix but not being able to use it? Would you be happy that this is money flushed? Wouldn’t you prefer an easy fix over your trainer experimenting with herbs and natural dehydration and perhaps other drugs, etc, to try to solve the problem?
There are so many other real issues in racing, real drug cheating, and don’t even get me started on how dirty the sales are, it’s just frustrating that Lasix gets so much ink.
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There are different degrees of bleeding, FF.
To say 90% of horses need race day lasix is just not true.
Allan
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07-04-2018, 01:59 PM
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#82
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 647
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Belmont 1st race. Lasix runners run 1-2-3. No lasix 4-5-6. This was a 2yo race. I'm sure none of them needed it, but no matter what they scoped afterwards, trainers Mott, Lynch and Clement will certainly add it next time to level the playing field.
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07-05-2018, 03:47 PM
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#83
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,858
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CSPAN2 Hearings
Right now, hearings on banning lasix in 24 hour window leading to a race, until 4:40pm.
Some of those being questioned - horsemen - sound like idiots, to put it bluntly.
I think the gov smells blood in the water.
Humane Society gal was spot on, delivered facts, no fluff. She has all the credibility in the discussion.
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07-05-2018, 04:47 PM
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#84
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Right now, hearings on banning lasix in 24 hour window leading to a race, until 4:40pm.
Some of those being questioned - horsemen - sound like idiots, to put it bluntly.
I think the gov smells blood in the water.
Humane Society gal was spot on, delivered facts, no fluff. She has all the credibility in the discussion.
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Think those hearings took place a few weeks ago I haven't heard much about them. Going to see if I can find them again and watch.
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07-05-2018, 04:55 PM
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#85
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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07-05-2018, 04:59 PM
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#86
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,858
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I guess they wer ereruns!
You missed you chance, CJ - you could have bet me on replay races and I would never have known!
My biorhythm says I am in the not-too-bright cycle right now.
Guess those charts are pretty good!
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07-05-2018, 05:55 PM
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Humane Society gal was spot on, delivered facts, no fluff. She has all the credibility in the discussion.
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Kitty Block.
She is actually the international president of HSUS, so she has a global perspective, and can see how the U.S. is lagging behind in policies.
No hysterics, no hype, no fluff --- she's a very good speaker. She has testified before Congress on numerous occassions, and has a law degree, so she knows how to state her case and she made some very good points.
Last edited by clicknow; 07-05-2018 at 05:57 PM.
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07-06-2018, 03:38 PM
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#88
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,858
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The horsemen were not impressive at all.
I kept hearing "if ALL the horses are on lasix, then who has the advantage?"
Give me a break.
And one said something to the effect of lasix is not a drug.
Not that there was an excess of brain cells on the government panel.......!
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