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06-12-2020, 10:23 AM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,602
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Hot/Cold Jockeys
What factors do you think are most important in the phenomenon of hot and cold jockeys?
How much do you alter your thinking when there is a major rider switch, especially to a hot or cold rider?
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
Last edited by classhandicapper; 06-12-2020 at 10:27 AM.
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06-12-2020, 11:06 AM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 510
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A good agent goes much further than a Jockeys ability to carry a horse to the wire.
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06-12-2020, 11:21 AM
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#3
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clean money
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 23,558
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I copped out, with voting "All of the Above".
Some of these guys are clearly more talented and/or skilled, than others.
Some of these guys (true or not, Luis Saez?? comes to mind) seem to ride hard for the big money.
The rest, = agents, trainers, owners, health, astrology...
__________________
Preparation. Discipline. Patience. Decisiveness.
Last edited by Robert Fischer; 06-12-2020 at 11:26 AM.
Reason: planetary energy ;)
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06-12-2020, 12:06 PM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,118
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One thing missing is their physical health. Hard to ride good with a bad knee, back, or whatever it is.
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06-12-2020, 12:10 PM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,540
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My hunch is there's some validity to it but unless you can come up with a metric to capture it and then test that metric to see if it increases accuracy then it may not be worth paying attention to. I feel the same way about track bias or anything else. I know there is a track bias sometimes but let's see a metric that ends up having some impact on the forecasting.
What I suspect you'll have with a rider on a streak is oftentimes just random variability, but even if the rider's recent string of successes is somewhat random there may also be something to be said for the confidence and state of mind. Maybe that transmits to the horse. It may even be worthwhile as a negative factor but not a positive, i.e. if the rider is hesitant and tentative for whatever reason could be a recent spill or several close calls etc, it wouldn't surprise me if some horses can pick up on that and act accordingly.
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06-12-2020, 02:22 PM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,546
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The horseplayers go through the same hot/cold streaks as the jockeys do...and it usually isn't because they are doing something "different". These streaks are mainly the result of randomness, IMO...and I, personally, don't try to read much into them. If I can have a losing streak...so can a top jockey. After all...our winning percentage expectations are both about the same.
__________________
Live to play another day.
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06-12-2020, 02:45 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 18,949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airford1
A good agent goes much further than a Jockeys ability to carry a horse to the wire.
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Excellent Point! And that's the way I voted.
Let me know when the jockeys do the running.
Until then I'll play the horses thank you.
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06-12-2020, 05:34 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC922
My hunch is there's some validity to it but unless you can come up with a metric to capture it and then test that metric to see if it increases accuracy then it may not be worth paying attention to. I feel the same way about track bias or anything else. I know there is a track bias sometimes but let's see a metric that ends up having some impact on the forecasting.
What I suspect you'll have with a rider on a streak is oftentimes just random variability, but even if the rider's recent string of successes is somewhat random there may also be something to be said for the confidence and state of mind. Maybe that transmits to the horse. It may even be worthwhile as a negative factor but not a positive, i.e. if the rider is hesitant and tentative for whatever reason could be a recent spill or several close calls etc, it wouldn't surprise me if some horses can pick up on that and act accordingly.
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I'm sure injuries and personal problems impact performance, but I'm starting to think insiders have such a huge edge in understanding changes in a horse's condition, a sharp agent with a hot rider becomes a kind of self reinforcing process. If a jockey has been winning a lot lately and a trainer knows a horse is primed for an "A" effort, he/she will seek out the hot rider, which in turns leads to more winners, which in turn supports the idea that the rider is hot and moving horses up (and vice versa).
The bias issue is another good one. I've been doing some data studies on that, but I'll take it to another thread when I get a chance.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
Last edited by classhandicapper; 06-12-2020 at 05:36 PM.
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06-12-2020, 05:47 PM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 18,949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I'm sure injuries and personal problems impact performance, but I'm starting to think insiders have such a huge edge in understanding changes in a horse's condition, a sharp agent with a hot rider becomes a kind of self reinforcing process. If a jockey has been winning a lot lately and a trainer knows they have a horse primed for an "A" effort, he/she will seek out the hot rider, which in turns leads to more winners, which in turn supports the idea that the rider is hot and moving horses up (and vice versa).
The bias issue is another good one. I've been doing some data studies on that, but I'll take it to another thread when I get a chance.
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"Starting to think" that way? Come on now! How long have you been at this game? This has been going on for many many decades.
Does anyone really believe that an outsider might have an inkling as to a horses actual overall condition? Perhaps a few that attend the races and know what to look for in an animal's physicality, but that's it!
Someday people (outsiders) might understand what the connotation "Run Happy" really means and the psychological impact it has in this game.
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06-12-2020, 05:51 PM
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro
"Starting to think" that way? Come on now! How long have you been at this game? This has been going on for many many decades.
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I guess I came off more naive than I intended. What I really meant to imply is that insiders have knowledge that impacts the board and during these hot jockey periods we may see it being demonstrated via the riding assignments.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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06-12-2020, 05:58 PM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 18,949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I guess I came off more naive than I intended. What I really meant to imply is that insiders have knowledge that impacts the board and during these hot jockey periods we may see it being demonstrated via the riding assignments.
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I thought so myself. I know you've been around the corner a few times.
They certainly do impact the board. That's why I use it exclusively. Money drives this entire game!
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06-13-2020, 02:25 PM
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#12
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,787
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The horse, of course, does the running, but the jockey can certainly inhibit it's ability to run well, or place in a position to do it's best. Unfortunately, it is hard to predict gross incompetence pre-race.
If all that mattered were the horse, why have jockeys at all?
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Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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06-13-2020, 09:48 PM
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Thornhill ON
Posts: 466
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Keen sense
Exactly know & where to go.here.
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06-13-2020, 10:23 PM
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#14
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velocitician
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 26,278
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IT is the mounts they get, nothing else. Horses run races, NOT riders.
If, for three weeks, the top stats jockey traded all mounts with a top ten journeyman, that fact would readily be exposed.
__________________
"If this world is all about winners, what's for the losers?" Jr. Bonner: "Well somebody's got to hold the horses Ace."
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06-13-2020, 10:24 PM
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#15
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velocitician
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 26,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
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If all that mattered were the horse, why have jockeys at all?
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What do the majority of horse that throw their riders do? They run right with the field, and with no weight to carry, tend to be up front any way.
__________________
"If this world is all about winners, what's for the losers?" Jr. Bonner: "Well somebody's got to hold the horses Ace."
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