Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Who created all men to be "inherently evil"...and, WHY?

Back to that again? Scripture says that God created Adam and Eve good. They freely chose to believe the lie of the serpent and disobey God.

And again....for umpteenth time...Evil is not a created thing!!!! Evil is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Pure lunacy!

You summed yourself up accurately for a change.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You summed yourself up accurately for a change.

Typical less than juvenile comeback. If someone said: "You're stupid" the simple and quick dumb 10 year old response would be....

"I know you are, but what am I?".

I said, "You are a lunatic"

You babble in your finest 10 year old knee jerking manner, "But what am I?"

How come no adult answer? And while your at it.......

Are you Calvinists the only non-apostate Christians? And the only elected Christians knowing what god wrote in your "book pf life" before the foundation of the world?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Typical less than juvenile comeback. If someone said: "You're stupid" the simple and quick dumb 10 year old response would be....

"I know you are, but what am I?".

I said, "You are a lunatic"

You babble in your finest 10 year old knee jerking manner, "But what am I?"

How come no adult answer? And while your at it.......

Are you Calvinists the only non-apostate Christians? And the only elected Christians knowing what god wrote in your "book pf life" before the foundation of the world?

I give adult answers to adults. Besides that it is written:

Prov 26:4
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.
NIV

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I give adult answers to adults. Besides that it is written:

Predestination (Calvinism)


As stated in the Canons of Dordrecht, First Head (Chapter 1) Article 15 [1]:

Moreover, Holy Scripture most especially highlights this eternal and undeserved grace of our election and brings it out more clearly for us, in that it further bears witness that not all people have been chosen but that some have not been chosen or have been passed by in God's eternal election
-- those, that is, concerning whom God, on the basis of his entirely free, most just, irreproachable, and unchangeable good pleasure, made the following decision: to leave them in the common misery into which, by their own fault, they have plunged themselves; not to grant them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but finally to condemn and eternally punish them (having been left in their own ways and under his just judgment), not only for their unbelief but also for all their other sins, in order to display his justice. And this is the decision of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin, but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.
.....................................

This doctrine of absolute predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life.

But if god creates all men, why create some designed to fail? Planned before the "foundation of the world"?

It absolutely makes your god indeed the author of all SIN. He/she/it knows who will sin because some were designed to sin, or be "non-elected", and knows who will not sin, because they were designed to be "elected".

Where does free will enter the picture?

The Boxcarian confused god, in circular genesis mode.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Predestination (Calvinism)


As stated in the Canons of Dordrecht, First Head (Chapter 1) Article 15 [1]:

Moreover, Holy Scripture most especially highlights this eternal and undeserved grace of our election and brings it out more clearly for us, in that it further bears witness that not all people have been chosen but that some have not been chosen or have been passed by in God's eternal election
-- those, that is, concerning whom God, on the basis of his entirely free, most just, irreproachable, and unchangeable good pleasure, made the following decision: to leave them in the common misery into which, by their own fault, they have plunged themselves; not to grant them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but finally to condemn and eternally punish them (having been left in their own ways and under his just judgment), not only for their unbelief but also for all their other sins, in order to display his justice. And this is the decision of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin, but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.
.....................................

This doctrine of absolute predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life.

But if god creates all men, why create some designed to fail? Planned before the "foundation of the world"?

It absolutely makes your god indeed the author of all SIN. He/she/it knows who will sin because some were designed to sin, or be "non-elected", and knows who will not sin, because they were designed to be "elected".

Where does free will enter the picture?

The Boxcarian confused god, in circular genesis mode.

Your question is a straw man. God didn't design man to fail. Man freely chose to sin and that sin resulted in his self-ruination, self-destruction, which God has allowed this perversion to his holy law to continue from one generation to the next. Therefore, God is not the author of sin. He allows evil to continue to exist in the world to accomplish his eschatological purposes. Romans 9 teaches this truth about Pharaoh. And then we have this Proverb, which teaches the same truth:

Prov 16:4
4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends —
even the wicked for a day of disaster.
NIV

This is precisely what God did for Pharaoh. He raised this wicked king up so that He would be able display his power in him so that God's name would be proclaimed among the nations.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Your question is a straw man. God didn't design man to fail. Man freely chose to sin and that sin resulted in his self-ruination, self-destruction, which God has allowed this perversion to his holy law to continue from one generation to the next. Therefore, God is not the author of sin. He allows evil to continue to exist in the world to accomplish his eschatological purposes. Romans 9 teaches this truth about Pharaoh. And then we have this Proverb, which teaches the same truth:

Prov 16:4
4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends —
even the wicked for a day of disaster.
NIV

This is precisely what God did for Pharaoh. He raised this wicked king up so that He would be able display his power in him so that God's name would be proclaimed among the nations.

However according to Calvin, god knew exactly hows each iota of free will of each human would perform. He created each before the "foundation of the world" According to the Abrahamic religions, god is omnipotent, and omniscient. Sinning according to Christianity is bad. And why would such a god first design, then create a human to fail and be bad. Sounds like a 1/2 ass job of creating "free will", knowing that particular human given that particular free will, was defective leading to sinning. Wouldn't it be a hell of lot simpler for your omnipotent deity to turn a lever a micrometer, and fix that defective "free will"?

Eternal damnation versus a minuscule correction?

There can be no free will if that free will is designed to sin or not sin, since before the "foundation of the world".

If a child does not understand something, a parent tries to correct that misunderstanding, often given to them by that parent in improper previous lessons and frequently setting a poor example. But god is a "super parent", knowing every single flaw in their child down to the last atom. Since that preposterous deity created all the flaws itself. And personally responsible for those flaws.

Parents don't murder their children, especially when they set the child up to fail.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

However according to Calvin, god knew exactly hows each iota of free will of each human would perform. He created each before the "foundation of the world" According to the Abrahamic religions, god is omnipotent, and omniscient. Sinning according to Christianity is bad. And why would such a god first design, then create a human to fail and be bad. Sounds like a 1/2 ass job of creating "free will", knowing that particular human given that particular free will, was defective leading to sinning. Wouldn't it be a hell of lot simpler for your omnipotent deity to turn a lever a micrometer, and fix that defective "free will"?

Eternal damnation versus a minuscule correction?

There can be no free will if that free will is designed to sin or not sin, since before the "foundation of the world".

If a child does not understand something, a parent tries to correct that misunderstanding, often given to them by that parent in improper previous lessons and frequently setting a poor example. But god is a "super parent", knowing every single flaw in their child down to the last atom. Since that preposterous deity created all the flaws itself. And personally responsible for those flaws.

Parents don't murder their children, especially when they set the child up to fail.

You don't understand "free will". Moral creatures are free to choose according to the dictates of their nature. God can make all kinds of choices that align with his holy nature, which means he cannot sin. Likewise, man can only make choices that are consistent with his nature, which means he cannot not sin.

Again, for the umpteenth time, God is not the Father of the entire human race. He sovereignly chooses who he will adopt into his family. It's called Unconditional Election. The devil is the spiritual father of the remainder of the human race.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You don't understand "free will". Moral creatures are free to choose according to the dictates of their nature. God can make all kinds of choices that align with his holy nature, which means he cannot sin. Likewise, man can only make choices that are consistent with his nature, which means he cannot not sin.

Again, for the umpteenth time, God is not the Father of the entire human race. He sovereignly chooses who he will adopt into his family. It's called Unconditional Election. The devil is the spiritual father of the remainder of the human race.

In other words, God discriminates...and the devil does not.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

In other words, God discriminates...and the devil does not.

God discriminates on what basis: Race? I.Q.? Looks? Morality? Virtue? What exactly?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God discriminates on what basis: Race? I.Q.? Looks? Morality? Virtue? What exactly?

He has made up his mind, from before the foundation of this world, on who will be in the "Book of Life", and who will be left out.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You don't understand "free will". Moral creatures are free to choose according to the dictates of their nature. God can make all kinds of choices that align with his holy nature, which means he cannot sin. Likewise, man can only make choices that are consistent with his nature, which means he cannot not sin.

Again, for the umpteenth time, God is not the Father of the entire human race. He sovereignly chooses who he will adopt into his family. It's called Unconditional Election. The devil is the spiritual father of the remainder of the human race.

But your god knows the results of the "free will" he gives to his children, knowing the choices they will make, BEFORE they choose. Therefore, unlike a human, is responsible for what will happen. And his children choosing ultimately the devil over him.

Man chooses doing, based on imperfect knowledge, never knowing what will happen especially on larger issues. Particularly those without the same full belly and trust of their fellows acquired through a relatively normal upbringing. Some are in more need than others the opportunity to understand their choices needed to practice free will CLEARLY, and not be overburdened by life's struggles.

Which your god unevenly hands out.

How many millions of children die from hunger, disease or natural disasters? Or if they survive those burdens, only grow with those formidable hurdles affecting their future practice of free will?

Does Calvin's god also elect those who draw a straight flush and those less fortunate, an empty hand? Remember an "Omnipotent, Omniscient" god knows 100%. And does 100% of everything in addition to your concept of so-called "free will"

Your god is personally responsible for everything. He/she/it deals the cards. All of life is full of his children being dealt a bad hand having no choice in the matter.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

He has made up his mind, from before the foundation of this world, on who will be in the "Book of Life", and who will be left out.

You still didn't answer the question: On what basis does he discriminate?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

But your god knows the results of the "free will" he gives to his children, knowing the choices they will make, BEFORE they choose. Therefore, unlike a human, is responsible for what will happen. And his children choosing ultimately the devil over him.

Man chooses doing, based on imperfect knowledge, never knowing what will happen especially on larger issues. Particularly those without the same full belly and trust of their fellows acquired through a relatively normal upbringing. Some are in more need than others the opportunity to understand their choices needed to practice free will CLEARLY, and not be overburdened by life's struggles.

Which your god unevenly hands out.

How many millions of children die from hunger, disease or natural disasters? Or if they survive those burdens, only grow with those formidable hurdles affecting their future practice of free will?

Does Calvin's god also elect those who draw a straight flush and those less fortunate, an empty hand? Remember an "Omnipotent, Omniscient" god knows 100%. And does 100% of everything in addition to your concept of so-called "free will"

Your god is personally responsible for everything. He/she/it deals the cards. All of life is full of his children being dealt a bad hand having no choice in the matter.

So...God knows our choices. So how does that change anything? How does that make him the author of sin? How does that make him morally culpable? As stated quote often on this thread and the other Religion threads, God works through the evil the world because He alone can bring good out of evil. The ultimate good that will come out of evil will be the Parousia when Jesus will set everything RIGHT. He will right all wrongs. He will judge the the wicked and righteous alike and give to both groups their just reward.

As far as "imperfect knowledge" goes: You, Thask, Light, Actor and others here have freely chosen to reject divine revelation. So, how is God the blame for that?

Your premise that man has no free will neither squares with the bible or with Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it.). As stated earlier, you and others have freely chosen to reject divine revelation and thereby acquire a true knowledge of God -- and of yourself for that matter! No one has forced you to make that choice. In fact, you are quite comfortable with your choice. You're at ease with it because your are acting according to your natural desires, and the natural bent of human nature is hostility toward God. The nature of man is in constant rebellion against God. So...you and others here have freely chosen according to the evil bias of your nature.

And the proof of what I say is in the eating: If you had a scintilla of godly desire in your soul, you would fall to your knees and cry out to God to give you a new disposition of heart. You would cry out for his mercy and humbly ask him to shower you with his grace so that the scales would fall from your eyes and your ears would become unstopped.

You have not because you ask not.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So...God knows our choices. So how does that change anything? How does that make him the author of sin? How does that make him morally culpable?

...As far as "imperfect knowledge" goes: You, Thask, Light, Actor and others here have freely chosen to reject divine revelation. So, how is God the blame for that?

He not only knows our choices, but limits our ability to know what our choices will lead to. Your god impairs our so-called free will to act fully and knowledgeably, by ignorance the outcomes of those actions. We are not gods (at least those that recognize that), and are only morally responsible, if aware of the ramifications of our actions.

In human terms, garbage in, garbage ouy


................................................

.."As far as "imperfect knowledge" goes: You, Thask, Light, Actor and others here have freely chosen to reject divine revelation. So, how is God the blame for that?"
................................................

We reject your narrow view on the basis of reason. One of the demonstrable faculties we have, versus your voluminous convoluted tales and non-demonstrable claims. Our reason, and reasons doe not depend on your god revealing, or not revealing any proclamations from on high.