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05-10-2021, 05:02 PM
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#7411
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
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Why does the Catholic monk come across as such a FAKE?
And who tells him that the atheist has no "moral foundation"?
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"Theory is knowledge that doesn't work. Practice is when everything works and you don't know why."
-- Hermann Hesse
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05-10-2021, 05:21 PM
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#7412
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Why does the Catholic monk come across as such a FAKE?
And who tells him that the atheist has no "moral foundation"?
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What moral foundation do atheists have? Moral Relativism?
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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05-10-2021, 05:31 PM
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#7413
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
What moral foundation do atheists have?
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The American Atheists Foundation for Separation of Church and State.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Moral Relativism?
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Why not?
__________________
Sapere aude
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05-10-2021, 05:35 PM
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#7414
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
What moral foundation do atheists have? Moral Relativism?
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Why are you taking the priest's side? I thought you hated Catholics.
__________________
Sapere aude
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05-10-2021, 06:47 PM
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#7415
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
What moral foundation do atheists have? Moral Relativism?
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The Christian's "morality" is tainted...because he/she is expecting an afterlife reward. But the atheist harbors no such delusions...so, his/her good deeds retain their purity.
__________________
"Theory is knowledge that doesn't work. Practice is when everything works and you don't know why."
-- Hermann Hesse
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05-10-2021, 08:37 PM
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#7416
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
The American Atheists Foundation for Separation of Church and State.
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And upon what do they base their moral foundation?
It rests on ever-shifting sands -- that shift in different ways for different people.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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05-10-2021, 08:42 PM
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#7417
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
It rests on ever-shifting sands -- that shift in different ways for different people.
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And so does religion.
__________________
Sapere aude
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05-11-2021, 01:10 AM
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#7418
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: St. Louis suburb
Posts: 1,761
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"Evolution did it".
One doesn't need a deity to achieve an altruistic disposition since, as Aristotle noted, one need only know the nature of a thing to know how it ought to be treated.
Yet, one individual cannot experience subjectively the degree of "love", for instance that another has for a loved one. I love my granddaughter for example, in a way entirely consonant with the description of "agape" love in Christian scripture, and even more so, in the descriptions of formally declared Saints such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. I experience and am describing something beyond altruism. Nothing less than the complete gift of self to another, in thought, word and deed. A particular point of reference for me, is the contemplation of Christ, who in one act of eternal existence wills to surrender the spiritual state for mere matter, in order to elevate man to share in God's nature-love as God loves- in the manner I'm analogically describing. Even to the degree of sharing the wounds of the Crucifixion forevermore in a glorified human body.
Someone doesn't agree. Fine. But I've never read anything contrary to the idea that local optima in evolution would inhibit this "agape" love from being realized, aside from speculation. There's no way that mere reproduction would have triggered anything beyond apish altruism. The hill climbing of altruism for the societal benefit of the species would have stopped where it does for the ape- where reproduction did just fine. As soon as some level of altruism existed in the hill climbing process sufficient for reproduction of the species, there would be no other level to progress to- certainly not the aforementioned "agape" love.
That's not even mentioning consciousness and therefore meaning and intentionality. It's never explained how meaningless matter like neurons can be "about" other meaningless matter, but merely explained away. "A human construct" is the attempt to describe the very thing that is in question. How is meaning produced from meaningless matter?
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"I like to come here (Saratoga) every year to visit my money." ---Joe E. Lewis
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05-11-2021, 04:59 AM
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#7419
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
And upon what do they base their moral foundation?
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Science!
__________________
Sapere aude
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05-11-2021, 08:30 AM
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#7420
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Why are you taking the priest's side? I thought you hated Catholics.
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Who told you that lie? I never said such a thing!
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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05-11-2021, 08:31 AM
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#7421
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Science!
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And what is science's foundation for morality?
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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05-11-2021, 08:33 AM
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#7422
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
And so does religion.
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No. Morality rests upon objective truth.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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05-11-2021, 08:39 AM
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#7423
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
The Christian's "morality" is tainted...because he/she is expecting an afterlife reward. But the atheist harbors no such delusions...so, his/her good deeds retain their purity.
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No, The Christian's morality is pure because it lies outside of himself. The Christian's morality relies solely upon the righteousness of God in Christ; for the Christian acknowledges that his own righteousness is as filthy rags (literally a woman's menstrual rag) (Isa 64:6). Therefore, this is what the atheist is really relying upon.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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05-11-2021, 04:05 PM
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#7424
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Who told you that lie? I never said such a thing!
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Oh, yes you have. Going back to Religion I.
Roman Catholicism was the first Christian denomination. Why don't you convert to Roman Catholicism?
__________________
Sapere aude
Last edited by Actor; 05-11-2021 at 04:16 PM.
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05-11-2021, 04:06 PM
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#7425
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
And what is science's foundation for morality?
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Natural selection.
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Sapere aude
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