Give HOY to Sea The Stars

[Gorgeous George]

Was a class above anything in the world last year. His feat will never be matched and his kind will never be seen again. STS raced only once against Twice Over who was third to Zenyatta and beat him by 17.25 lengths. Zenyatta's closing style would have never have caught STS. Rachel Alexandra raced against an average crop of horses all year and believe Zenyatta would have beat her on any surface. It would be the honourable thing to do in a sport corrupted by so many factors to give the highest accolades to the greatest horse.

[gm10]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous George

Was a class above anything in the world last year. His feat will never be matched and his kind will never be seen again. STS raced only once against Twice Over who was third to Zenyatta and beat him by 17.25 lengths. Zenyatta's closing style would have never have caught STS. Rachel Alexandra raced against an average crop of horses all year and believe Zenyatta would have beat her on any surface. It would be the honourable thing to do in a sport corrupted by so many factors to give the highest accolades to the greatest horse.

But

a) he never raced in the US
b) what did he beat? Only Conduit won a proper international race, and that was not an easy win against a horse who never beats true G1 horses

I think he is a great horse but his form doesn't read as well as it did in October

[Gorgeous George]

Originally Posted by gm10

But

a) he never raced in the US
b) what did he beat? Only Conduit won a proper international race, and that was not an easy win against a horse who never beats true G1 horses

I think he is a great horse but his form doesn't read as well as it did in October

a)There was nothing in the US to race against. Eclipse awards need to be changed to include international horses.

b) Vision D'etat won the Grade 1 Hong Kong Cup.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by gm10

But

a) he never raced in the US
b) what did he beat? Only Conduit won a proper international race, and that was not an easy win against a horse who never beats true G1 horses

I think he is a great horse but his form doesn't read as well as it did in October

Are you a newbie to the game? Must be if you have to ask what did he beat. Sea The Stars defeated nine horses rated by Timeform at 127 to 134 pounds. In any given year only about 10 to 15 horses in the entire world are rated as high as 127. And if you are suggesting that the BC Turf is "a proper international race" but the Grand Prix de Paris, Yorkshire Oaks, Irish Derby, Queen Elizabeth II Stakes, Sussex Stakes and the Saint James's Palace Stakes are not, then you truly are clueless.

[gm10]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Are you a newbie to the game? Must be if you have to ask what did he beat. Sea The Stars defeated nine horses rated by Timeform at 127 to 134 pounds. In any given year only about 10 to 15 horses in the entire world are rated as high as 127. And if you are suggesting that the BC Turf is "a proper international race" but the Grand Prix de Paris, Yorkshire Oaks, Irish Derby, Queen Elizabeth II Stakes, Sussex Stakes and the Saint James's Palace Stakes are not, then you truly are clueless.

Calm down, I was refering to Conduit winning the Breeders Cup. I had ignored Vision d'Etat winning at Hong Kong, that's true.

I don't really doubt that he was a great horse anyway, I just have 1 big and 1 small question mark next to him.

The big one is that I don't trust the RP ratings. They are class ratings adjusted for speed. I'm not denying that he was very fast, I'm just saying that a high RPR isn't definite evidence of that.

My small question mark is ... what did he beat. The big 3yo rivals, Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman, Fame And Glory, Delegator ... I think they aren't special at all. The older horses ... well, Conduit won an easy BC Turf, and Vision d'Etat won against a decent bunch. Youmzain, etc ... were they just ordinary or are they very good horses who ran into a special horse?

I suspect STS was a very special horse but we will never know for sure.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous George

Eclipse awards need to be changed to include international horses.

No, they don't. Europeans already have the Cartiers, of which STS has won the HOY (as well as the Irish HOY). Creating a global HOY award seems to me to be a completely avoidable mistake, therefore we should avoid it. The arguments amongst Americans are bad enough, do we need to add the fights that will break out by including the South Africans, Australians, Japanese as well as the Europeans to the mix (to mention just a few with no disrespect intended toward any other non-mentioned racing jurisdiction)?

[Linny]

If someone wants to create a global HOY, fine, but the Eclipse Awards are a US based honor and should go only to a horse that raced at least once in the US.
If STS gets an Eclipse the RA should get a Cartier Award for "Dirt 3yo Filly."

[PhantomOnTour]

I agree that the Eclipse awards are American based awards and you had to run in this country to win it.

Global HOY is an impossible award as most will never face each other.

Its like the world footballer of the year award; it went to Messi but we all know it shoulda been Peyton Manning

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by gm10

Calm down, I was refering to Conduit winning the Breeders Cup. I had ignored Vision d'Etat winning at Hong Kong, that's true.

I don't really doubt that he was a great horse anyway, I just have 1 big and 1 small question mark next to him.

The big one is that I don't trust the RP ratings. They are class ratings adjusted for speed. I'm not denying that he was very fast, I'm just saying that a high RPR isn't definite evidence of that.

My small question mark is ... what did he beat. The big 3yo rivals, Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman, Fame And Glory, Delegator ... I think they aren't special at all. The older horses ... well, Conduit won an easy BC Turf, and Vision d'Etat won against a decent bunch. Youmzain, etc ... were they just ordinary or are they very good horses who ran into a special horse?

I suspect STS was a very special horse but we will never know for sure.

You'll never know for sure, but those who have a strong historical perspective on international racing will.

BTW, unless you think the Racing Post and Timeform are conspiring with one another, you'll have to explain how both rate Sea The Stars among the top dozen runners in the world over the last 60 years.

And frankly, if you think horses like Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman, Fame And Glory and Delegator "aren't special at all", I can pretty much dismiss your evaluations of American horses as well.

[joanied]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

No, they don't. Europeans already have the Cartiers, of which STS has won the HOY (as well as the Irish HOY). Creating a global HOY award seems to me to be a completely avoidable mistake, therefore we should avoid it. The arguments amongst Americans are bad enough, do we need to add the fights that will break out by including the South Africans, Australians, Japanese as well as the Europeans to the mix (to mention just a few with no disrespect intended toward any other non-mentioned racing jurisdiction)?

Good post. STS has been honored for his accomplishments...it's a shame they retired him...would have been interesting to see what he could do as a 4 yr. old....but, anyway...as mentioned, he didn't race in the USA...and, Gorgeous George, please don't say he didn't have anything here to race against...that is a cop out, IMO....Conduit came, as did many others...STS connection chose to retire him instead.

I won't even go into a 'Global' HoY award...it's a ridiculous idea, IMO...
STS did his thing, he has his awards, his place in history is sealed...but he never came over here, so he doesn't deserve any AMERICAN Eclipse award at all.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by joanied

:[snip]...please don't say he didn't have anything here to race against...that is a cop out, IMO....Conduit came, as did many others...[snip]

If you recall, Sea The Stars easily defeated Conduit (which ran 4th) in the Arc "with a ton in hand...and left genuine Group 1 horses looking like slow old boats" despite a truly horrendous trip. He had beaten Twice Over by 17 1/2 lengths in the Coral-Eclipse. He had also trounced the likes of Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman and Dar Re Mi. In terms of his European competition, one could argue that he really didn't have anything to race against. OTOH, if you believe any of the American-based competitors were better than all of those, you are entitled to your opinion.

[WinterTriangle]

Originally Posted by Steve R

If you recall, Sea The Stars easily defeated Conduit (which ran 4th) in the Arc "with a ton in hand...and left genuine Group 1 horses looking like slow old boats" despite a truly horrendous trip. He had beaten Twice Over by 17 1/2 lengths in the Coral-Eclipse. He had also trounced the likes of Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman and Dar Re Mi. In terms of his European competition, one could argue that he really didn't have anything to race against. OTOH, if you believe any of the American-based competitors were better than all of those, you are entitled to your opinion.

That's what I like about distance races....that truly horrendous trip STS had, and watching him overcome it. You don't see that kind of thing in dirt sprints. To me, the mark a a truly great horse, and of course, a testimony to the rider, too.

I have a very high opinion of the Arc....theoretically, IMHO Zarkava, (if you translated her talent and could make it dirt or synth, which is about as impossible as making Zenyatta a dirt horse and Rachel a turf or synth horse which is why I say theoretically) would make short work of Rachel and Zenyatta.

[joanied]

Well, we will never know how STS would have done in the USA...and I won't speculate on what he would have done to RA or Z...I will say that, IMO, STS is one of the greatest race horses Europe has ever produced (I beleive to this day, Ribot was the greatest)...and probably one of the great ones in the world.

But this thread was started because someone thinks STS deserves the American Eclipse for Horse of the Year...which IMO, is ridiculous because he never raced here.

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour

I agree that the Eclipse awards are American based awards and you had to run in this country to win it.

No you don't just ask the connections of Singspiel in 1996

[gm10]

Originally Posted by Steve R

You'll never know for sure, but those who have a strong historical perspective on international racing will.

BTW, unless you think the Racing Post and Timeform are conspiring with one another, you'll have to explain how both rate Sea The Stars among the top dozen runners in the world over the last 60 years.

And frankly, if you think horses like Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman, Fame And Glory and Delegator "aren't special at all", I can pretty much dismiss your evaluations of American horses as well.

a) if you want to measure speed, use TOPSPEED. I am not familiar with Timeform's methodology, but RPR are mainly based on class.

b) Your last comment is rude and not necessary. Just use arguments if you want to make a point. My view is: beating each other or horses like Zacinto isn't good enough to make them special. They failed when it mattered

Fame And Glory: no win since June 2009 (none of the three behind him have won a race in 8 months, I believe). Not disgraced but no chance in the Arc.
Mastercraftsman: 1 win since June 2009, a group 3 at Dundalk. No chance in the BC,
Delegator: 1 win since April in a G2, but was dq'd after a failed drugs test.
Rip Van Winkle: two G1 wins since June, against the decent but unexceptional Paco Boy and Zacinto - but beaten out of sight in the Classic

So there you go. A group of special horses - really?