Maybe PETA has a point ...

[Aerocraft67]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Keep enabling these types to hold that much power - and then see what happens.

American society?

I'll let you in on a secret. AMERICAN SOCIETY is very apathetic when it comes to racing...ie...they don't give two shits about it.

Except on very big days like the Triple Crown races...and then the BC (but nowhere near as interested compared to the TC races).

That's it...other then that, they don't care...and it shows.

Now...who exactly is going to force the closure of racing?

AMERICAN SOCIETY?

Not a chance.

A vocal minority of radicals? Now we're talking. And you're going to help them do it....good job.

But don't gaslight me and tell me AMERICAN SOCIETY is clamoring for racing to end.

If that were the case, no celebrities would be showing up on NBC on Derby Day and the infields wouldn't be filled with young people getting drunk and high year after year.

I'm not telling you society is clamoring for racing to end. I'm telling you it has waning appetite to condone livestock for entertainment. Whether or not animal welfare radicals are the cause.

I agree about disinterest in racing. Obscurity is part of racing's charm. Problem is, what little general awareness comes though includes spectacular breakdowns that dominate perception. Hell, some people probably think we're degenerates that watch racing for the crashes.

Celebrity draw and partier presence at racing's big events don't inspire major votes of confidence.

Definitely agree about a vocal minority set against racing. But acknowledging reality is not aiding and abetting anti-racing forces. It's the opposite. Otherwise, they're right and we're wrong. I'm no PR counsel, but I think the industry could do better to acknowledge its situation and control the narrative.

Consider that the most authoritative and comprehensive source of equine racing fatality data is an organization dedicated to horse racing's demise. It's totally natural to hide uncomfortable truths, but I don't think it helps racing. I think it helps one gumshoe advocate meaningfully chip away at it.

I'm not saying racing officials should post the body count up there on the web site with the takeout rate. Transparency is not the same as publicity. But they should make that data more available, with more context, than anti-racing guy. That would diffuse his power to wield it. Otherwise he controls the narrative. And leaves even the most engaged following here on PA wondering aloud about what's going on and why and in what context.

That's just an example. I know we can't solve the problem with discussion forum posts. But I don't think they're making it worse. I could just use a little help justifying one of my favorite pastimes as something other than sordid blood sport in mixed company.

[Aerocraft67]

Originally Posted by o_crunk

Here's some stats

(for this that follow me, here's a url: https://twitter.com/o_crunk/status/1637823027269312512 )

2009 - 395K total starts, 205K starts at $10K or less, 51.8% of all starts, 2.0 fatality rate.
2010 - 387K, 198K, 51.2%, 1.88
2011 - 379K, 190K, 50.2%, 1.88
2012 - 369K, 176K, 47.8%, 1.92
2013 - 339K, 165K, 48.8%, 1.90
2014 - 308K, 146K, 47.5%, 1.89
2015 - 299K, 138K, 46.2%, 1.62
2016 - 314K, 135K, 43.2%, 1.54
2017 - 305K, 129K, 42.3%, 1.61
2018 - 293K, 123K, 42.2%, 1.68
2019 - 288K, 115K, 39.9%, 1.53
2020 - 236K, 88K, 37.5%, 1.41
2021 - 264K, 91K, 34.4%, 1.39
2022 - 262K, 78K, 29.8%, 1.25

Happy to acknowledge this makes a point I made in my last parallel post a day late and a dollar short. Thank you.

[woodbinepmi]

Unfortunately, fatality rates don't mean much when the horses are collapsing when everyone is watching. We can tell them till we are blue in the face that less runners are breaking down, but when the occasional viewer continues to see it, that's all they believe is what's happening.

[o_crunk]

Originally Posted by Maximillion

I think you have to look at these things on case by case basis.If a horse is running well at Belmont for 25k and 2 months later is struggling in a 4k claimer at Penn National you don't blame the track or "cheap racing"-you blame the people involved.

Sure. Since NY state makes breakdowns public data I'll tell you that the $25K claiming starts at NYRA tracks are twice as likely to have a fatality while racing as those above $25K tags and no tags at NYRA tracks. Those are just the base stats.

While I don't have the numbers handy, I'm very sure that a $25K tag running at NYRA is very likely to be running at PEN or other C-like tracks eventually. This is just a fact of life. If you're running at less than $25K at NYRA, you won't be running at NYRA for long.

Some may say this is because there is less of "those people" involved than before and I agree. But you can't lament that "racing" is shrinking in the same breath (not saying you are). 15 years ago, the makeup of the game had a lot more of "those people" than now - for better or for worse. I don't think the "racing industry" set out to shrink this much when they started the equine injury db in 2008 in the wake of Eight Belles.

"Racing" (in this sense - the big 3 - CDI, TSG and NYRA) seems to clamor for the demise of these "cheap tracks". Careful what you wish for. If the end of the line for horses in their racing careers is the big 3 instead of the "cheap tracks", they've got a whole new set of problems to deal with which is the thorny issue of race horses exiting the racing system at their facilities - read: slaughter.

[Sheffwed]

Worth a read from an actual expert

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...th-mark-casse/

[Maximillion]

Originally Posted by o_crunk

Sure. Since NY state makes breakdowns public data I'll tell you that the $25K claiming starts at NYRA tracks are twice as likely to have a fatality while racing as those above $25K tags and no tags at NYRA tracks. Those are just the base stats.

While I don't have the numbers handy, I'm very sure that a $25K tag running at NYRA is very likely to be running at PEN or other C-like tracks eventually. This is just a fact of life. If you're running at less than $25K at NYRA, you won't be running at NYRA for long.

Some may say this is because there is less of "those people" involved than before and I agree. But you can't lament that "racing" is shrinking in the same breath (not saying you are). 15 years ago, the makeup of the game had a lot more of "those people" than now - for better or for worse. I don't think the "racing industry" set out to shrink this much when they started the equine injury db in 2008 in the wake of Eight Belles.

"Racing" (in this sense - the big 3 - CDI, TSG and NYRA) seems to clamor for the demise of these "cheap tracks". Careful what you wish for. If the end of the line for horses in their racing careers is the big 3 instead of the "cheap tracks", they've got a whole new set of problems to deal with which is the thorny issue of race horses exiting the racing system at their facilities - read: slaughter.

If a lot of these C-like tracks were to go away another problem besides the one you mentioned is what we would probably see is a lot of big fields yes.....but it might be something like a 12 horse field with 11 dropping sharply in class-even more of a trainer race than the the 5 horse races we complain about now.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by o_crunk

However *apathy* is a knife that cuts both ways and the problem for racing is that it is inexorably tied to government and politics. When these political issues get put to the people, their apathy shows up at the ballot box. Greyhound racing got absolutely creamed when put to a vote in Florida of all places. You can assume the same would be true if T-bred racing was put to a vote in California. Do I think it's all doom and gloom? No. But while apathy can be your friend it can also be your enemy.

Agree pretty much completely on this part.

However, T-bred racing, especially in California, has something Greyhound racing never had.

Very wealthy and influential owners.

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

However, T-bred racing, especially in California, has something Greyhound racing never had.

Very wealthy and influential owners.

Respectfully, especially in CA, they're dinosaurs. The influential generation is long gone. Rich? Sure. Not influential.

[The_Turf_Monster]

Originally Posted by Sheffwed

Worth a read from an actual expert

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...th-mark-casse/

It's an interesting article, I don't think that synthetic surfaces cure all ills over the longterm

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Aerocraft67

Consider that the most authoritative and comprehensive source of equine racing fatality data is an organization dedicated to horse racing's demise. It's totally natural to hide uncomfortable truths, but I don't think it helps racing. I think it helps one gumshoe advocate meaningfully chip away at it.

I'm not saying racing officials should post the body count up there on the web site with the takeout rate. Transparency is not the same as publicity. But they should make that data more available, with more context, than anti-racing guy. That would diffuse his power to wield it. Otherwise he controls the narrative. And leaves even the most engaged following here on PA wondering aloud about what's going on and why and in what context.

This part I think is right. There clearly is a feeling in the industry, which I remember all the way back in the days of Go For Wand, that if we just never talk about breakdowns and never show breakdowns, the issue will go away. The industry got all mad at NBC for showing Go For Wand, and for showing Eight Belles, and to this day many tracks scrub breakdown footage from their replays (which is, by the way, extremely harmful to handicappers, who need to be able to judge the trouble that is caused by horses breaking down).

This doesn't work. Especially in 2023 when everyone has access to videos of breakdowns and the media is all over this story. What the industry has to try to do is (1) get the breakdown rate down (I will note that after California had a really bad year and a half, Santa Anita and Del Mar really did do this!) and (2) be totally transparent about breakdowns. Every horse that breaks down on the track should be necropsied by an independent doctor, with full toxicology tests, and all that information should be public. So should statistics about breakdowns, information about the amount of cushion in and composition of the racetrack, etc.

And breakdown videos should NEVER again be scrubbed from track and ADW websites. Put it ALL out there. We have nothing to hide. This is our sport and we should be willing to defend it.

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by Sheffwed

Worth a read from an actual expert

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...th-mark-casse/

Very interesting read - might be worth its own thread. A legitimate expert opinion about the different surfaces, and synthetics in particular. Some eye opening stuff about faster recovery and reduced lung bleeding after workouts. He also calls BS on the claim that there are more soft-tissue injuries from synthetic surfaces.

[Hoops McCann]

well i was watching the broadcast but got distracted and actually missed the breakdown. what a blessing. i tell ya it's getting hard to watch. so what's horseracing gonna do? or more specifically in this case, NYRA. my guess is you'll hear the lip service 'the safety of the horses and jockeys are of the highest importance yada yada" and then they'll talk about looking into increasing safety measures. hoping all the while that with time this blows over as it has in the past.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Hoops McCann

well i was watching the broadcast but got distracted and actually missed the breakdown. what a blessing. i tell ya it's getting hard to watch. so what's horseracing gonna do? or more specifically in this case, NYRA. my guess is you'll hear the lip service 'the safety of the horses and jockeys are of the highest importance yada yada" and then they'll talk about looking into increasing safety measures. hoping all the while that with time this blows over as it has in the past.

I love it when people write stuff like this...acting as if NYRA (or anyone else on this earth) can actually PREVENT BREAKDOWNS FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN

the troll factor is high these days

[shout1966]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I love it when people write stuff like this...acting as if NYRA (or anyone else on this earth) can actually PREVENT BREAKDOWNS FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN

the troll factor is high these days

amen

[Hoops McCann]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I love it when people write stuff like this...acting as if NYRA (or anyone else on this earth) can actually PREVENT BREAKDOWNS FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN

the troll factor is high these days

i didn't say that they could. the thing is, horseracing as an industry has a big PR problem. so what, if anything are they gonna do about it? stick their heads in the sand? or just call everyone trolls who bring it up?