 |
|
03-06-2016, 12:56 AM
|
#31
|
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Be careful. I think Barry Burkin sold something with that name back in the 90s...and he might still hold the copyright to the title.
|
You can't copyright a title.
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 01:03 AM
|
#32
|
|
Buckle Up
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Actor
You can't copyright a title.
|
Post #20 by Dave Schwartz
Quote:
Believe it or not, titles are not copyrightable.
You can trademark them, though.
BTW, that Power Pace was a fine piece of work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 08:54 AM
|
#33
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cratos
No, class is not stamina because class is nonparametric whereas stamina is parametric.
However stamina is a function of class, but class is not a function of stamina because there are horses that have the stamina to get the race distance, but they don't have the class to win the race.
|
Crazy. I like your replies. Definitely out from left field. Most people evaluate class in what I call baseball scoring methods, wins or ITM at what race rating (class). I did a study a while back and found what separated graded sprints from other sprints was late pace. Most graded stake sprint winners had amazingly good late pace. This shows stamania as a physical indicator of class and is different than a baseball score.
__________________
"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 10:51 AM
|
#34
|
|
The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,878
|
I think you are better off using the blueprint Quinn set forth in his book Handicapping by the Conditions. Of course, it need to be updated to today's realities, but an overall evaluation of the horse's record, allowing for less than A races during development, will serve you far better than any kind of a numerical definition.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 11:23 AM
|
#35
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
|
I liked Quinn's book on class of the field. I think one of those updates to his book would be late pace.
__________________
"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 04:53 PM
|
#36
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,566
|
If late pace=class...then Zenyatta was the classiest of them all.
__________________
"Theory is knowledge that doesn't work. Practice is when everything works and you don't know why."
-- Hermann Hesse
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 05:16 PM
|
#37
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA.
Posts: 7,464
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by thaskalos
If late pace=class...then Zenyatta was the classiest of them all.
|
Not necessarily. Just having the best late pace isn't enough. It has to be relative to the pace and final time of the race. But using late pace to evaluate a horse's class, in general, isn't necessary. The only thing that matters is how the horse "classes up" against the horses it is racing against in this particular race.
All great horses have good late pace relative to the pace. Yes, Zenyatta had far superior late pace ratings than Seattle Slew, but Slew was still a strong finisher relative to the fast pace he established. All great horses finish well relative to their energy expenditure prior to the quarter pole, that's why they win most of their races.
Of course, in Zenyatta's case, her late pace ratings were the fastest I've ever seen by a considerable margin, so the sheer fact that her closing kick was so freakish put her in an elite class.
Last edited by pandy; 03-06-2016 at 05:20 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 06:27 PM
|
#38
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
|
Those horses that could hang in with a fast early pace and still kick late had the class edge. This is especially good for 3 year olds moving up the ladder. The ones without a late kick who depend on an early pace usually won't make it to the next level up the ladder.
__________________
"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 07:14 PM
|
#39
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA.
Posts: 7,464
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Capper Al
Those horses that could hang in with a fast early pace and still kick late had the class edge. This is especially good for 3 year olds moving up the ladder. The ones without a late kick who depend on an early pace usually won't make it to the next level up the ladder.
|
Totally agree.
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 07:26 PM
|
#40
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,566
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Capper Al
Those horses that could hang in with a fast early pace and still kick late had the class edge. This is especially good for 3 year olds moving up the ladder. The ones without a late kick who depend on an early pace usually won't make it to the next level up the ladder.
|
And what about those confirmed closers, who NEVER "hang with the early pace". Don't THEY ever deserve the "class edge"?
__________________
"Theory is knowledge that doesn't work. Practice is when everything works and you don't know why."
-- Hermann Hesse
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 07:26 PM
|
#41
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,692
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by thaskalos
If late pace=class...then Zenyatta was the classiest of them all.
|
Silky Sullivan wasn't to shabby at late pace.
Last edited by shots; 03-06-2016 at 07:28 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 07:56 PM
|
#42
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA.
Posts: 7,464
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by shots
Silky Sullivan wasn't to shabby at late pace.
|
Those Silky Sullivan race replay videos are among the best on youtube, amazing.
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 08:25 PM
|
#43
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by thaskalos
And what about those confirmed closers, who NEVER "hang with the early pace". Don't THEY ever deserve the "class edge"?
|
Confirmed closers probably won't be able to hang in with those horses showing the ability to go early and late in the same race. There are no magic numbers here. The only conclusion suggested is that a horse in both the top half of early speed and late pace has the class to compete and are likely contenders.
__________________
"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 08:32 PM
|
#44
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,566
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Capper Al
Confirmed closers probably won't be able to hang in with those horses showing the ability to go early and late in the same race. There are no magic numbers here. The only conclusion suggested is that a horse in both the top half of early speed and late pace has the class to compete and are likely contenders.
|
If the horse is in the top half of the field in both early and late...it could just as easily be a lackluster non-contender.
__________________
"Theory is knowledge that doesn't work. Practice is when everything works and you don't know why."
-- Hermann Hesse
|
|
|
|
|
03-06-2016, 09:28 PM
|
#45
|
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by thaskalos
If the horse is in the top half of the field in both early and late...it could just as easily be a lackluster non-contender.
|
What else is new about handicapping?
__________________
"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
