Religion II

[hcap]

There's nothing more to say until you understand the distinction between "chronological" (time) and "logical"(time). Maybe you should spend an entire day at the library researching these two terms.

OK why don't you explain the difference oh great expert on everything.

Will you speak English or boxcarian?

**bolded what you are referring to.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

OK why don't you explain the difference oh great expert on everything.

Will you speak English or boxcarian?

**bolded what you are referring to.

Main Entry:log£i£cal
Pronunciation:*l*-ji-k*l
Function:adjective
Date:15th century

1 a (1) : of, relating to, involving, or being in accordance with logic (2) : skilled in logic b : formally true or valid : ANALYTIC, DEDUCTIVE
2 : capable of reasoning or of using reason in an orderly cogent fashion *a logical thinker*
–log£i£cal£i£ty \*l*-j*-*ka-l*-t*\ noun
–log£i£cal£ly \*l*-ji-k(*-)l*\ adverb
–log£i£cal£ness \-k*l-n*s\ noun

==========================

Main Entry:chro£no£log£i£cal
Pronunciation:*kr*-n*-*l*-ji-k*l, *kr*-
Variant:also chro£no£log£ic \-jik\
Function:adjective
Date:1614

: of, relating to, or arranged in or according to the order of time *chronological tables of American history*; also : reckoned in units of time *chronological age*
–chro£no£log£i£cal£ly \-ji-k(*-)l*\ adverb

You should be ashamed of yourself, but you're probably not capable of feeling any shame or embarrassment or any such thing as these.

And there is no such thing as chronological time or logical time. But there is such a thing as chronological Order or logical Order...of Time.

[hcap]

Bunky the question in this context as you have always claimed, that (somehow?) there is a difference between logical time and chronological time. Dictionary definitions do not cover that difference.


It's your absurd contention. Explain it.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Bunky the question in this context as you have always claimed, that (somehow?) there is a difference between logical time and chronological time. Dictionary definitions do not cover that difference.


It's your absurd contention. Explain it.

I never talked about logical time or chronological time. I talked about the chronological and logical flow (or order) of time.

Let me give you an illustration via an absurd example. Genesis not only gives us the chronological order of creation but its logical order as well. But all things that are chronological do not necessarily have to be logical. Suppose the Genesis account told us that Adam was created on the 1st day of creation instead of on the 6th day. Would you not find that chronological order to be logically absurd?

Also, I would remind you that perception is not always reality, is it? Because we are so inexorably time-bound, so controlled by Time we cannot help but think in chronological terms. We mistakenly think that our lives began in the Past when in fact our lives began in the Present moment of our conception or birth -- that Present moment since then ever receding into the Past. But we did not come out of the Past. Instead, day by day, our lives keep receding INTO the Past. We actually logically proceeded from the Future through the Present into the Past.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I never talked about logical time or chronological time. I talked about the chronological and logical flow (or order) of time.

..... We mistakenly think that our lives began in the Past when in fact our lives began in the Present moment of our conception or birth -- that Present moment since then ever receding into the Past. But we did not come out of the Past. Instead, day by day, our lives keep receding INTO the Past. We actually logically proceeded from the Future through the Present into the Past.

I am not going to re-hash all the previous debates we have had on this subject. except to tell you contrary to your current denial that you "never talked about logical time or chronological time.", you have and used specifically... logical time and chronological time.

I will chalk that up to your obvious failing memory. But I will tell you that your original claim written in your convoluted 11 part thesis about time" "For Time does not come out of the Past; it proceeds from the Future!" is misleading because you incorrectly used 3 common terms. Past, present and future.

You have looked at these three artificially limiting the continuous changing of things ant processes or events along the dimension of time without realizing how each are all part of a larger set of causes and effects. Time is a continuous dimension that can not be easily divided into only three parts.

Yes, traveling down a road we see the road in front of us and watch it recede behind. But you are ignoring much of the road ahead and much of the road behind. I agree the present is what we experience at any one moment, but we can look behind and ahead if the windows in our vehicle are clear. We have a much clearer understanding of past bumps and curves along the road behind us since we have the advantage of consciousness of memory. However we can only use our linted view of the road ahead of us, combined with our memory past experiences to "flesh out" the road ahead.

Understanding upcoming turns and irregularities ahead is only predictable to a certain extent since we can not calculate precisely how past bumps and irregularities have affected our course down new road and our vision ahead is also limited by our senses and the various upcoming horizons. The road behind is always much easier to analyze since we can see how one past event, say 2 miles down the road led to and affected where and how we traveled to a closer past event say only 1 mile down the past road. We can only approximate events ahead of us. Predicting races is an approximation. Handicapping uses past experiences. and approximate calculations or judgement.

Remember "Past Performance Is No Guarantee of Future Results"

The difficulty you are having when stating the future precedes the past, is while it is true the bumps ahead in a moving vehicle become bumps behind, is that we still experience the bumps closer ahead, FIRST that is perhaps 10 feet ahead BEFORE we experience all other bumps greater than 10 feet ahead. [B]Nearer bumps are always BEFORE all the LATER bumps AFTER. And the same process also applies to the sequence of bumps and turns we have already passed behind us. We can develop reasons one event affected a later event. After much repeated observations and testing derive "laws of nature".

It is called causality and the arrow of time and causality is from before to after

The future you are using is not only the immediate bump coming up, nor is your past the immediate bump right behind you. Time extends much greater in both directions.

Causality is a guiding principle with only some exceptions on the sub atomic level. And Causality is always before affecting later. Events behind us may affect events ahead of us. Never vice versa.

Your language betrays you.



'

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I am not going to re-hash all the previous debates we have had on this subject. except to tell you contrary to your current denial that you "never talked about logical time or chronological time.", you have and used specifically... logical time and chronological time.

I will chalk that up to your obvious failing memory. But I will tell you that your original claim written in your convoluted 11 part thesis about time" "For Time does not come out of the Past; it proceeds from the Future!" is misleading because you incorrectly used 3 common terms. Past, present and future.

You have looked at these three artificially limiting the continuous changing of things ant processes or events along the dimension of time without realizing how each are all part of a larger set of causes and effects. Time is a continuous dimension that can not be easily divided into only three parts.

Yes, traveling down a road we see the road in front of us and watch it recede behind. But you are ignoring much of the road ahead and much of the road behind. I agree the present is what we experience at any one moment, but we can look behind and ahead if the windows in our vehicle are clear. We have a much clearer understanding of past bumps and curves along the road behind us since we have the advantage of consciousness of memory. However we can only use our linted view of the road ahead of us, combined with our memory past experiences to "flesh out" the road ahead.

Understanding upcoming turns and irregularities ahead is only predictable to a certain extent since we can not calculate precisely how past bumps and irregularities have affected our course down new road and our vision ahead is also limited by our senses and the various upcoming horizons. The road behind is always much easier to analyze since we can see how one past event, say 2 miles down the road led to and affected where and how we traveled to a closer past event say only 1 mile down the past road. We can only approximate events ahead of us. Predicting races is an approximation. Handicapping uses past experiences. and approximate calculations or judgement.

Remember "Past Performance Is No Guarantee of Future Results"

The difficulty you are having when stating the future precedes the past, is while it is true the bumps ahead in a moving vehicle become bumps behind, is that we still experience the bumps closer ahead, FIRST that is perhaps 10 feet ahead BEFORE we experience all other bumps greater than 10 feet ahead. [B]Nearer bumps are always BEFORE all the LATER bumps AFTER. And the same process also applies to the sequence of bumps and turns we have already passed behind us. We can develop reasons one event affected a later event. After much repeated observations and testing derive "laws of nature".

It is called causality and the arrow of time and causality is from before to after

The future you are using is not only the immediate bump coming up, nor is your past the immediate bump right behind you. Time extends much greater in both directions.

Causality is a guiding principle with only some exceptions on the sub atomic level. And Causality is always before affecting later. Events behind us may affect events ahead of us. Never vice versa.

Your language betrays you.
'

I "incorrectly used three terms"? Are you serious? How!? I have no problem discerning what is Now with what was Yesterday and what I plan on doing Tomorrow.

And you are incredible. You finally come up with a solid analogy (a first for you!) to describe the flow of time with your "bumpy road" example and then immediately turn right around and try to corrupt (give a twisted interpretation) of the good analogy with your nonsense because the analogy at the end of the day doesn't fit YOUR view of time. So, you try to make the analogy say something that it can't possibly be saying.

First of all, we never experience the bumps "closer ahead" until the wheels of the car ride over the bumps in the Present. We can see some or even most of the the bumps closer ahead (depending on how fast we're driving) because those bumps "closer ahead" represent the Near Future. Whereas bumps 500 yards ahead represent the "intermediate" Future and those bumps a mile down the road, perhaps the distant Future, etc.

As we ride over some bumps, those bumps immediately start to recede behind us, i.e. in the Past. First, is the immediate Past, then the intermediate Past, then the distant Past.

I have often told you what is the only practical way to trace the flow of time -- it can only be traced from the Present because the Present is unique; for only in the Present can we experience all Phenomena as we do. Tomorrow (unused time) is ahead of me and getting close and closer by the minute. Eventually, Tomorrow will become Today (realized time) and when Today arrives it immediately starts slipping into Yesterday (used time). And when another new day arrives to become Today, what was Today slips totally into Yesterday. Tomorrow and Yesterday are ALWAYS separated by Today.. Today is the "portal" through which our Tomorrows become our Todays and then proceed to become our Yesterdays.

You on the other hand think that Tomorrow come through Yesterday to become our Today. In this loony scheme, Today becomes the termination point of all time! And moreover, if this were the true flow, we would all know what the Tomorrow holds in store for us because it came through the "portal" of Yesterday -- time that we've already used! How could we not know everything that Tomorrow is bringing since, according to you, we've already lived it Yesterday?

Finally, Time doesn't cause anything. Events in time are caused. You're conflating events IN Time with Time itself.

[hcap]

Last time.

We are all traveling on this "road" from before to after together. The planets, stars and galaxies molecules all move down this path. None of it stands sill as events happen outside of it.

The future does not become the present nor does the present become the past. We are not standing still while time and events transform and whiz past us. All things and processes move from before to later, except for some events on the sub atomic level. Future events depend on and are affected by past and present events. Past events once occurred can never be altered or affected by future events. No matter how much you jump up and down holding your breath and dream it.

Your inane theory is absolutely unrealistic, unpractical and defies reason. Can you change what you did yesterday or last week, by planning on doing something different today or tomorrow?

IF AS YOU CLAIM THE FUTURE PRECEDES THE PAST, MEANING THE FUTURE COMES BEFORE, FIRST, OR PRIOR TO YESTERDAY YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO!

The entire business world uses accrued interest and can plan for changing markets. Do insurance companies ignore past date on whetether or not to insure and pay off say smokers? Can you deposit $100. today in your bank account and change what you had in your account yesterday?

You needn't have ever worked, you evidently created wealth for a young boxcar by an old boxcar depositing a few bucks and earning interest going backwards .

Good work if you can get it.

Once again using my road analogy, the future only precedes the past IF we are stationary and motionless in relationship to time moving without us. However you and everything else is moving along in time from before to later.

You claim you can distinguish yesterday from today and tomorrow. But you have only the vaguest notion what they represent. If I were you I would retract your claimm or restate it using different languauge. Your confused boxcarian is all fouled up as usual.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Last time.

We are all traveling on this "road" from before to after together. The planets, stars and galaxies molecules all move down this path. None of it stands sill as events happen outside of it.

The future does not become the present nor does the present become the past. We are not standing still while time and events transform and whiz past us. All things and processes move from before to later, except for some events on the sub atomic level. Future events depend on and are affected by past and present events. Past events once occurred can never be altered or affected by future events. No matter how much you jump up and down holding your breath and dream it.

Your inane theory is absolutely unrealistic, unpractical and defies reason. Can you change what you did yesterday or last week, by planning on doing something different today or tomorrow?

IF AS YOU CLAIM THE FUTURE PRECEDES THE PAST, MEANING THE FUTURE COMES BEFORE, FIRST, OR PRIOR TO YESTERDAY YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO!

The entire business world uses accrued interest and can plan for changing markets. Do insurance companies ignore past date on whetether or not to insure and pay off say smokers? Can you deposit $100. today in your bank account and change what you had in your account yesterday?

You needn't have ever worked, you evidently created wealth for a young boxcar by an old boxcar depositing a few bucks and earning interest going backwards .

Good work if you can get it.

Once again using my road analogy, the future only precedes the past IF we are stationary and motionless in relationship to time moving without us. However you and everything else is moving along in time from before to later.

You claim you can distinguish yesterday from today and tomorrow. But you have only the vaguest notion what they represent. If I were you I would retract your claimm or restate it using different languauge. Your confused boxcarian is all fouled up as usual.

Obviously, you cannot distinguish yesterday from today or today from tomorrow. So, what is the use carrying on?

And who says that we have to "stand still" in order for tomorrow to become today and today to become yesterday? Why can't we move THROUGH Time as Time moves to meet us!? Why?

If there are no segments of Time such as tomorrow, today and yesterday, then there is no such thing as Time. We would be living in ETERNITY! Tomorrow does BECOME Today because of Motion -- because of the successiveness of motion of cosmic bodies and because of the CYCLES of that motion. Time, therefore, is MOVING and we MOVE in/through it!

It appears you have absolutely no clue as to what causes Time! Read the Genesis creation account and note what happened on the 4th day of Creation, and also take an Astronomy 101 course and it will confirm the Genesis account. Then after you do all that, buy a sundial and watch Time MOVE, and then also watch other people simultaneously moving in/through Time. In fact, do this for a solid 24-hour and watch and observe how one day BECOMES another.

And who is talking about changing the Past? The issue is why don't we know perfectly what Tomorrow holds for each of us since ALL of Tomorrow has passed through 100% USED Time of the Past -- Time that has been lived!? We should know every detail about Tomorrow, since Tomorrow is actually USED Time. It's USED Time because it passed through the Portal of the Past which is all USED Time. In your utter absurd scheme of Time, Tomorrow BECOMES Today by passing through the Past.
So, quit playing your word games!

And the reason we can't alter the Past is because we get only ONE shot at USING Time. And that shot, for you info, is in the Present. Once the Present moves past us, it's too late to alter the Past. We can't actually UNDO what has been done.

You are either the densest person on this MOVING planet or the most obtuse. In either case, you are hopeless.

[boxcar]

And, Humpty, again I must stress something that I said previously about days coming into existence. When I say that Tomorrow becomes today, I'm saying that a new day has arrived to the Present. I'm saying a new day has been caused to arrive in the Present and the cause, of course, is the motion of the heavenly bodies. So...if you deny that one day becomes another, then you're saying that we are eternal and we're living in eternity. For in eternity nothing comes into existence. Nothing becomes something else; for to become something else requires change (or motion). And Motion requires successive movement. And none of this is possible in Eternity.

The only other equally absurd option you have is to deny that Time has a cause. Don't forget: The Law of Causality says that all things that have come into existence have been caused. Time, certainly, is a creation of God. It came into existence, and its efficient cause is Matter in Motion. So, if you insist on saying that Today does not become Yesterday, then you're denying the Law of Causality. And the implication to this is what I stated above. In your world, there is only Today. Only Today exists. There is no change! Today never changes into (becomes) a different day!

[hcap]

I gave you absurd practical ramifications of your outlandish contradictory "future preceding the present and past" pretty much destroying your theory. You have yet to counter the many absurd ramifications I raised. I am still waiting for your show me one bank with accrued backwards interest, or one that you can make deposts to a balance you had yesterday..

Do you have any "absurd practical ramifications" of the standard model of the direction and causality of time from before to after, that most of the world agrees with, so you can show us similar outlandish absurdities as I did with your assertion?.

You stated in your 11 part thesis that modern scientists are wrong. Prove it. One practical piece of evidence?

Otherwise, there is no point going any further.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I gave you absurd practical ramifications of your outlandish contradictory "future preceding the present and past" pretty much destroying your theory. You have yet to counter the many absurd ramifications I raised. I am still waiting for your show me one bank with accrued backwards interest, or one that you can make deposts to a balance you had yesterday..

Do you have any "absurd practical ramifications" of the standard model of the direction and causality of time from before to after, that most of the world agrees with, so you can show us similar outlandish absurdities as I did with your assertion?.

You stated in your 11 part thesis that modern scientists are wrong. Prove it. One practical piece of evidence?

Otherwise, there is no point going any further.

You haven't countered anything! All your posts on this subject are incoherent gibberish. You have continued to argue with non sequiturs and straw men and red herrings.

You can't even address my last post when I refuted your claim that days don't BECOME anything! When you say that you're implying that Today never changes! You're implying that our day doesn't change into night -- that our daylight doesn't BECOME nighttime. That our Today doesn't become Yesterday!

Plus I have clearly addressed your main objection that since the SOURCE of all Time is the Future and that the Future flows through the Present to the Past, it's for this very reason it's not possible that any of us can predict the Future with accuracy because all the time in the Future is UNUSED. How many times have I explained to you that the Past contains all of our USED time (time we have "spent"); therefore, if the Future runs though the Past, as you claim, the Future would be filled with all our USED time before it even reaches us in the Present, and we should know exactly what all that USED time has in store for us Today. Yet, you are so helplessly confused you keep irrationally insisting that I should be able to predict the Future with all its UNUSED, UNCONSUMED, UNSPENT time!

Moreover, you have never addressed another insurmountable problem to your loony idea of the "arrow of time" -- The basin or storehouse of all Time. In your model, you must be having all Time emptying into the Present, which is patently absurd. If the Present is the termination point of all Time, then Time ended a long time ago. You would have all the Past and all the Future ending right now!

But this is not a problem with my real flow of Time. The Future is the fountain head of all Time. The Future contains all Time that will ever be, that is and was. And as the Future flows through the Present it empties into the Past -- the basin of all our memories. [b]The Past is the STOREHOUSE of all our memories -- a storehouse that is continually being filled. But it's being filled by/through the Present. In your loony theory, it's not possible that the Present be source of all our memories because you have the Future terminating in the Present. Your arrow of Time is this:

Your arrow of time: From the Future through the Past to the Present.

So tells us: Once the Future reaches the dead end street of the Present, what does it do: It does a U turn to head back to the Past? It must because it's the Past that is the storehouse of memories in our minds. Or Do you even remember anything you did YESTERDAY? You must not. You must remember only the moment -- the NOW -- only the Present because this is where YOU have Time terminating! Either that or the "arrow of time" constantly does a giant Uey to head back to the Past after the Future reaches the Present.

[hcap]

I am not going to address all of your craziness now. Maybe some now maybe some later if I feel like it

Originally Posted by boxcar

You haven't countered anything! All your posts on this subject are incoherent gibberish. You have continued to argue with non sequiturs and straw men and red herrings.

Of course you have not countered anything. You can not. I have tried to explain what is wrong theoretically and practically Perhaps I have not explained the theoretical clearly, but the practical ramifications of your inanity is dead on. All you have done is danced around my theoretical objections. Your statement that the "future precedes the present and past" is utter nonsense .

You can't even address my last post when I refuted your claim that days don't BECOME anything! When you say that you're implying that Today never changes! You're implying that our day doesn't change into night -- that our daylight doesn't BECOME nighttime. That our Today doesn't become Yesterday!

You stated in your thesis

Very soon “today” will become “yesterday” – and slip into the immediate Past. Then it will become a “week ago” – in the recent Past. Then it will become “last month” in the ever receding Past. Then it will become “last year” into the distant Past.

Looks to me like whole lat of becoming and how 3 tenses of time transforms from one into another. Again time is considered a dimension that all things and events move along. If you walked across the street you were at one time at one point in the street, and later at another. Your position and you did not not transform. Your position changed.

Plus I have clearly addressed your main objection that since the SOURCE of all Time is the Future and that the Future flows through the Present to the Past, it's for this very reason it's not possible that any of us can predict the Future with accuracy because all the time in the Future is UNUSED

This is double talk. And contradicts your original statement that the future precedes the present and past. I have re-stated that precedes means before, first and prior to, and what that means in English and its practical ramifications.

After your original statement in your thesis, you now come up with YET another definition and as I said dance around the issue with a new doozy"the Future flows through the Present to the Past" Oy gevalt! Not only does it become and transform, but it also "flows though" Make up your feeble mind already.

How many times have I explained to you that the Past contains all of our USED time (time we have "spent"); therefore, if the Future runs though the Past, as you claim,

I never said "the Future runs though the Pas"

the Future would be filled with all our USED time before it even reaches us in the Present, and we should know exactly what all that USED time has in store for us Today. Yet, you are so helplessly confused you keep irrationally insisting that I should be able to predict the Future with all its UNUSED, UNCONSUMED, UNSPENT time!

Now, not only does time become, transform and flow through, there is additionally "used and unused time" as well. HOLY SHIT!

Moreover, you have never addressed another insurmountable problem to your loony idea of the "arrow of time" -- The basin or storehouse of all Time. In your model, you must be having all Time emptying into the Present, which is patently absurd. If the Present is the termination point of all Time, then Time ended a long time ago. You would have all the Past and all the Future ending right now!

Your ignorance of the phrase "arrow of time" betrays you. It is neither a "storehouse of time" nor does it "empty into the present".

Although there are criticisms of arrow of time, it clearly demonstrates one thing. The direction of Causality.

Before is clearly before after.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by hcap

Although there are criticisms of arrow of time, it clearly demonstrates one thing. The direction of Causality.

Before is clearly before after

Answer this. Provide us with one piece of evidence that demonstrates causality runs contrary to before and then after. All of your theoretical speculations are besides the point unless you can.

In other words, unless you can show the practical unbreaking of an egg, give it all up. Entropy defeats you

Entropy is Why you Can't unbreak an Egg. and is also why time can't go Backward

[LemonSoupKid]

Christ is Risen!

[hcap]

Box, your problem is a very short attention span. Not only in discussing things but with your, and I admit our awareness of the present moment.

If you would remember what events occurred say yesterday, and in what sequence they happened you would understand the sequence proceeded from early to late, or pretty much what any standard clock shows indicating the passage of time from 12 am thru each hour and second and minute until 12 pm.

And if any of us could really expand our perception of the present moment at say age 70, we would remember 25,550 day sequences of times' events, all moving the same from early to late, before to after.

How many times did we travel from the beginning of a road trip to it's end? How often did we watch our children and grand children grow from birth to adulthood?

In a much vaguer way If we possibly could have expanded our present sense, imagining future events to happen, and if we could then hold all those past days together with new future days we may poosibly grasp the dimension of time in a fuller way All events proceeding from beginning to end. Never do any events ever proceed from later to early. Either in the remembered or real past or the imagined or real future.

Our experience of the time dimension would go past the human 3 tenses of past, present and future.

If you want to get a handle on eternity, perhaps that is the way to start

The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.
Albert Einstein