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Old 08-24-2016, 11:08 AM   #16
chadk66
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For anybody interested we have a two year old running in the 4th tomorrow at Cby. 3 Horse (go go eva). Second start. Ran well in her first start (3rd). Wide most of the trip. Didn't switch leads down the lane so tired some. Came out of that race great and has trained awesome since. Adding blinkers, jock said she was looking around some and suggested it. Expect her to run very well. Morning line is good for wagering but I doubt she'll be much of a price. But who knows. The the horse that beat her for second probably won't beat her again. Not much of a field in it. Worth a look if she has any kind of price.
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barn32
Seattle Slew cost $17,500.

Now that's my idea of owning a horse for the right price.
hysterical lady $17,500 didn't sell at the OBS Ocala sale. Stronach made over $2m with this one! Lots of those stories both good and bad!
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by chadk66
As an owner, I can tell you it happens for several reasons. 1. Horse can't run. 2. Horse is sore and owners wants to unload it. 3. Owner isn't in the breeding business and wants to unload the horse for reasons 1 and 2 above. 4. Owner owes trainer $ and can't afford to pay so they are running the horse at a level they hope it'll get claimed at so owner can pay his bill. 5. Horse is a head case and little to no chance of cutting it. 6. Owner is going to be going thru a bankruptcy and needs to liquidate. 7. Horse has been run over it's head too many times and they need to take a chance of loosing the horse to get the horse an easy win.
add tax write off they are pretty generous and continue to be!
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:22 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by onefast99
add tax write off they are pretty generous and continue to be!
knew I would forget something lol
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:24 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by chadk66
As an owner, I can tell you it happens for several reasons. 1. Horse can't run. 2. Horse is sore and owners wants to unload it. 3. Owner isn't in the breeding business and wants to unload the horse for reasons 1 and 2 above. 4. Owner owes trainer $ and can't afford to pay so they are running the horse at a level they hope it'll get claimed at so owner can pay his bill. 5. Horse is a head case and little to no chance of cutting it. 6. Owner is going to be going thru a bankruptcy and needs to liquidate. 7. Horse has been run over it's head too many times and they need to take a chance of loosing the horse to get the horse an easy win.

Yep lots of reasons why they dropping the horse and we will never know why.
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:28 PM   #21
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I don't know about this horse. Most owners I know can handicap and sometimes due to circumstances your horse may look terrible on paper. You can place your horse aggressively for the easy (?) win hoping that any buyers will want to watch one to be sure the horse is OK.
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:51 PM   #22
sammy the sage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadk66
As an owner, I can tell you it happens for several reasons. 1. Horse can't run. 2. Horse is sore and owners wants to unload it. 3. Owner isn't in the breeding business and wants to unload the horse for reasons 1 and 2 above. 4. Owner owes trainer $ and can't afford to pay so they are running the horse at a level they hope it'll get claimed at so owner can pay his bill. 5. Horse is a head case and little to no chance of cutting it. 6. Owner is going to be going thru a bankruptcy and needs to liquidate. 7. Horse has been run over it's head too many times and they need to take a chance of loosing the horse to get the horse an easy win.
very good...
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:57 PM   #23
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on another note after dealing with the OBS sale the last 2 days. i have never seen such a weak sale in the last 35 years. more than half the horse left the ring with 3 letters next to them RNA (RESERVE NOT ACHIEVED). i have no idea what to make of it, but that comes after the Saratoga New York Bred Sale which had very little spark to it as well and that comes after the 2 year old in training sale that stunk as well.

from what i can see there is a trend now
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Old 08-24-2016, 01:35 PM   #24
chadk66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy
on another note after dealing with the OBS sale the last 2 days. i have never seen such a weak sale in the last 35 years. more than half the horse left the ring with 3 letters next to them RNA (RESERVE NOT ACHIEVED). i have no idea what to make of it, but that comes after the Saratoga New York Bred Sale which had very little spark to it as well and that comes after the 2 year old in training sale that stunk as well.

from what i can see there is a trend now
what's even more bizarre is the Minnesota Thoroughbred Association yearling auction last year was dismal but this year was strongest sale in 16 years.
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Old 08-24-2016, 01:42 PM   #25
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finished 5-4-1 1 off @ 7/2
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:58 PM   #26
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Antebellum Giveaway?

Hello, this is Mike Piazza, the founder and managing partner of Zilla Racing Stables.

I appreciate the opportunity to respond to this fantastic question.

One of the biggest mistakes you can make is placing your horses based off purchase price.

It works both ways. If you bought a horse for $5,000 who turned out to be an elite talent would you place him in a a $40,000 claimer because you bought him cheap?

The truth is, once the hammer drops the purchase price from that point on actually becomes irrelevant.

A horse’s auction price is very similar to a draft pick of a professional sports team.

For example, a horse that you buy relatively cheap would be equivalent to a 20th round pick, and a horse that is very expensive is equivalent to a first round draft pick.

A hight pick does not guarantee results.

As in baseball, if the player is costing your team more than they’re helping you, only a bad manager would continue to put that player on the mound because of what “round” it used to acquire that player in a previous year.

Whether you buy a horse for $1000 or a million dollars you must objectively evaluate your horses potential, talent, and upside relative to the cost to maintain.

In the case of Antebellum, she never grew. She is a very small horse, and while small horses can run, generally when they don’t grow it limits their upside.

Also after we bought Antebellum, her full sister Forestone went on to lose I believe 11 straight maidens, and was running out of town losing in cheap maiden claimers.

We also placed Antebellum in a claiming race for $40,000 not once, not twice, but FIVE times, and the market rejected her at that point.

This is why the purchase price is irrelevant. If she was “worth 100K” surely they would have snatched her up.

Another very important thing to understand here is, once you have identified your horse as a claiming horse, if you are entered in a race where you don’t think there is a good chance your horse will get claimed, that means you are in the WRONG RACE.

That last race was NOT Jose’s fault. She lacked the punch to go through. She ran very good, and even ran a career top on the Ragozin sheets.

If anything, I regret not placing Antebellum in cheaper sooner.

Even if she did win the race you mentioned it was highly unlikely she would move forward enough to beat the next condition NW2L40,000, which is a brutally tough condition for a horse of Antebellums ability.

Owning horses is very similar to poker. Once your hand enters in “negative “EV” (Expected Value Theory)*” territory it is time to cut bait.

Cut your loses, and move on. You will do more harm trying to “recover what you put in”. Free up those resources to be placed into a more productive resource.

We were also trying to win a race. You can’t pay the bills if you don’t win races.

Now the new owners make out too. They now have a horse at a NEW cost-basis.

It costs 40-50k a year to keep horses in training on the NYRA circuit. Wether they are cheap claimers or stakes horses. I don’t think its in my partners best interest to continue to pay monthly expenses on a horse that is very unlikely to earn more than it will cost to maintain. You will never recover the purchase price. So like poker, what you put in the pot is gone. All you can do is make sound decisions going forward, and not look back.

Someone mentioned a “tax write-off”. That also is a big fallacy. Wether you can write it off or not you’re still losing money. Id prefer to make $1,000.00 and pay taxes on it than lose a $1,000 and “write it off”. You still lost one thousand dollars.

In closing I would also like to mention there was an 8 way shake on the winner. There was no shake on Antebellum. Only one trainer (Falcone Jr.) saw enough in Antebellum to “pony-up" $20,000.

If Antebellum was worth more than $20,000 there would certainly be more than one person interested in her, especially at Saratoga.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Mike Piazza
Zilla Racing Stables
www.zillaracingstables.com
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:01 AM   #27
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Great post. I can't find a thing to disagree with there. I can only think of one thing that you forgot but I'm sure also figures into your reasoning as it does mine: cutting loose while you have a healthy horse. Injuries are frequent and can strike at any time. Vet bills and layoffs are expensive with no money or chance of money coming in on that horse. It's also next to impossible to sell an injured horse unless that horse's injury is irrelevant as it has breeding value.

I've tried to tell before that the supposed great tax write-off is a fallacy. I'm glad someone noted the same.
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:40 AM   #28
Donttellmeshowme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla Racing
Hello, this is Mike Piazza, the founder and managing partner of Zilla Racing Stables.

I appreciate the opportunity to respond to this fantastic question.

One of the biggest mistakes you can make is placing your horses based off purchase price.

It works both ways. If you bought a horse for $5,000 who turned out to be an elite talent would you place him in a a $40,000 claimer because you bought him cheap?

The truth is, once the hammer drops the purchase price from that point on actually becomes irrelevant.

A horse’s auction price is very similar to a draft pick of a professional sports team.

For example, a horse that you buy relatively cheap would be equivalent to a 20th round pick, and a horse that is very expensive is equivalent to a first round draft pick.

A hight pick does not guarantee results.

As in baseball, if the player is costing your team more than they’re helping you, only a bad manager would continue to put that player on the mound because of what “round” it used to acquire that player in a previous year.

Whether you buy a horse for $1000 or a million dollars you must objectively evaluate your horses potential, talent, and upside relative to the cost to maintain.

In the case of Antebellum, she never grew. She is a very small horse, and while small horses can run, generally when they don’t grow it limits their upside.

Also after we bought Antebellum, her full sister Forestone went on to lose I believe 11 straight maidens, and was running out of town losing in cheap maiden claimers.

We also placed Antebellum in a claiming race for $40,000 not once, not twice, but FIVE times, and the market rejected her at that point.

This is why the purchase price is irrelevant. If she was “worth 100K” surely they would have snatched her up.

Another very important thing to understand here is, once you have identified your horse as a claiming horse, if you are entered in a race where you don’t think there is a good chance your horse will get claimed, that means you are in the WRONG RACE.

That last race was NOT Jose’s fault. She lacked the punch to go through. She ran very good, and even ran a career top on the Ragozin sheets.

If anything, I regret not placing Antebellum in cheaper sooner.

Even if she did win the race you mentioned it was highly unlikely she would move forward enough to beat the next condition NW2L40,000, which is a brutally tough condition for a horse of Antebellums ability.

Owning horses is very similar to poker. Once your hand enters in “negative “EV” (Expected Value Theory)*” territory it is time to cut bait.

Cut your loses, and move on. You will do more harm trying to “recover what you put in”. Free up those resources to be placed into a more productive resource.

We were also trying to win a race. You can’t pay the bills if you don’t win races.

Now the new owners make out too. They now have a horse at a NEW cost-basis.

It costs 40-50k a year to keep horses in training on the NYRA circuit. Wether they are cheap claimers or stakes horses. I don’t think its in my partners best interest to continue to pay monthly expenses on a horse that is very unlikely to earn more than it will cost to maintain. You will never recover the purchase price. So like poker, what you put in the pot is gone. All you can do is make sound decisions going forward, and not look back.

Someone mentioned a “tax write-off”. That also is a big fallacy. Wether you can write it off or not you’re still losing money. Id prefer to make $1,000.00 and pay taxes on it than lose a $1,000 and “write it off”. You still lost one thousand dollars.

In closing I would also like to mention there was an 8 way shake on the winner. There was no shake on Antebellum. Only one trainer (Falcone Jr.) saw enough in Antebellum to “pony-up" $20,000.

If Antebellum was worth more than $20,000 there would certainly be more than one person interested in her, especially at Saratoga.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Mike Piazza
Zilla Racing Stables
www.zillaracingstables.com



Great post you truly understand owning horses. Some people will never ever get it about owning horses.
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla Racing
...if you are entered in a race where you don’t think there is a good chance your horse will get claimed, that means you are in the WRONG RACE.

...


The guiding principle to winning in the claiming ranks. Nice to see it floated out there in the midst of a great post - especially from an owner instead of a trainer.
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Old 08-26-2016, 04:21 PM   #30
VeryOldMan
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Whoa - what a great post by Mike Piazza. Didn't quote it simply because it was so long and detailed. The insight is much appreciated by this horse racing fan and an example of why I love this board - we get input from owners, trainers, public handicappers, private handicappers, etc., etc. that helps me (at least) understand the sport at a deeper level than I possibly could without it.

And, yeah, I too wondered if it was "that" Mike Piazza . . . the answer is no
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