Iran (and Obama?) Lied about Nukes

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

also I want to add that the what if statement shows you dont know and its only your opinion

No dude.

We don't make certain things because other countries can make it some combination of better or cheaper. That s how capitalism works if they couldn't we'd still be making it... there is a reason we don't do textiles anymore.

When it comes to certain items other parts of the world have inherent advantages over us. China can pay people less and has 4 workers to our 1. When it comes to making certain low skill widgets they are simply better at it than us...

You want us to make the widget here and sell it here even though all that means is we pay more for something we could get cheaper elsewhere. Additionally we miss out on the opportunity to make something else that would be more profitable.

[fast4522]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

No I just get annoyed at these oversimplified and erroneous views of how things actually are...

You repeatedly demonstrate you have no idea what you're talking about.

That policy of red lines broken left with Barack Hussein Obama!
Ultra liberal policy is worthless now. Iran had its people setting up military bases and Israel destroyed them. No boots on the ground, going forward from this country.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

we have a lot of diverse workers and going by just the fact unemployment is down shows the American worker is gong back to work in all the various and wonderful fields of the working tradesmen that is the American worker would suspect that with more domestic production will not harm the consumers remember always by American if you can.

They are not going back to work manufacturing things. We are increasingly a service economy. Over 85% of the manufacturing jobs lost in this country over recent years were lost to automation, not to outsourcing off shore.

Trump is all upset about the US importing solar panels. The manufacture of solar panels is highly automated. The vast majority of solar panel related jobs in this country is the installation of panels. Many of those jobs are being lost as tariffs price the panels out of the market.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by Clocker

I have repeated, ad nauseum, the opinion of the Trump people that the tariffs will increase the basic cost of living by 10-15%. They don't have any exact numbers either. That is their opinion. Do you think that increase in the cost of living is a good thing for Americans? Do you disagree with Trump because of no exact numbers? Do you have any exact numbers to show that the Trump estimates are correct?

You keep repeating something that will not come to pass. Why?

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

No dude.

We don't make certain things because other countries can make it some combination of better or cheaper. That s how capitalism works if they couldn't we'd still be making it... there is a reason we don't do textiles anymore.

When it comes to certain items other parts of the world have inherent advantages over us. China can pay people less and has 4 workers to our 1. When it comes to making certain low skill widgets they are simply better at it than us...

You want us to make the widget here and sell it here even though all that means is we pay more for something we could get cheaper elsewhere. Additionally we miss out on the opportunity to make something else that would be more profitable.

and now with the tariffs maybe the other countries wont be able to sell so cheap in here in USA so that wil mean we the USA can produce more of the products we use the most and create more jobs that will help keep making America great.



you bring up buying cheaper elsewhere, is that at the cost of American jobs? Making something else that wold be more profitable for who? Maybe President Trump understands that certain products need to be purchased from other countries and thats why the new tariffs have the exemption clause.

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Clocker

"...that's what we have to do..."

Why is that what "we have to do"? Why do I have to "buy American" if I can get a better product for a lower price overseas? I feel no obligation to "have to do" that.

Why shouldn't the onus be on the American company and the American workers to make something I would willingly buy?


Americans do a lot of things better than most other folks around the world. I buy American when it is the smart thing for me to do, not when some politician preaches at me and tries to tell me it's my duty.

P.S. If it is what we "have to do", are the Trump fashion products like shirts and ties still made overseas?

Did you buy USA made merchandise before the market was flooded with all this real cheap from China



I dont know were President Trumps items are made however after the teriffs go in effect if his shirts and ties have indeed been made from somewhere other then USA maybe he will have them made here in the USA.


also its not every product under the sun that we the USA needs to make here , I mean we still have to trade internationally with the new tariffs in effect this might help us create more jobs because what has been in place for several years has not been working.

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Clocker

They are not going back to work manufacturing things. We are increasingly a service economy. Over 85% of the manufacturing jobs lost in this country over recent years were lost to automation, not to outsourcing off shore.

Trump is all upset about the US importing solar panels. The manufacture of solar panels is highly automated. The vast majority of solar panel related jobs in this country is the installation of panels. Many of those jobs are being lost as tariffs price the panels out of the market.

How do you know what President Trump is upset about? I didnt know the solar panel market employed so many people. How many people in the USA lots jobs in the solar panel market due to tariffs be specific? Could that be a short term loss with lots more gains when production of the products used to make solar panes are made in USA?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

and now with the tariffs maybe the other countries wont be able to sell so cheap in here in USA so that wil mean we the USA can produce more of the products we use the most and create more jobs that will help keep making America great.

You aren't listening.

The government shouldn't be manipulating the economy to produce inferior products domestically. Why should we it's not like we can export those products elsewhere. Instead in services and fields like STEM we enjoy advantages and those make up the bulk of our exports. A great America is one with a dynamic and adaptive global economy. Not a turtle that wants to hide in its shell.

you bring up buying cheaper elsewhere, is that at the cost of American jobs?

We are at 4% unemployment. We don't have a shortage of jobs.

Making something else that wold be more profitable for who?.

EVERYBODY. Making products you can produce well and cheaper than competitors is always better for the worker. 1) His profit margins are better and 2) he has a larger market because he can sell it globally.

Trump makes his shirts and ties overseas because the workers are cheaper and there are more of them.

We import steel from Germany because they already have the trained workforce and the mills.

The would-be American tie and shirt maker either has to take an extremely low wage or not be able to export his product.

The would be steel worker has to first get trained and then open up a new steel mill before he hopes to turn a profit.

In the end both are going to go do something else that is more profitable for them in the long run.

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

You aren't listening.

The government shouldn't be manipulating the economy to produce inferior products domestically. Why should we it's not like we can export those products elsewhere. Instead in services and fields like STEM we enjoy advantages and those make up the bulk of our exports. A great America is one with a dynamic and adaptive global economy. Not a turtle that wants to hide in its shell.


says you who takes up for europe and iran



We are at 4% unemployment. We don't have a shortage of jobs.


since when did it drop to 4%? It dripped after President Trump took office wow that shows he knows what hes doing and it also shows those tariffs are the right thing to do for America.




EVERYBODY. Making products you can produce well and cheaper than competitors is always better for the worker. 1) His profit margins are better and 2) he has a larger market because he can sell it globally.


The best for the American worker is to produce more products in America.




Trump makes his shirts and ties overseas because the workers are cheaper and there are more of them.

Again with the new tariffs maybe President Trump will get his ties and shirts made here in the USA only time will tell


We import steel from Germany because they already have the trained workforce and the mills.


Your saying that American workers do not have the training to make steel LOL or the mills to produce the steel? With the new tariffs we can start producing more steel and purchase less that would produce more American Jobs


The would-be American tie and shirt maker either has to take an extremely low wage or not be able to export his product.

The would be steel worker has to first get trained and then open up a new steel mill before he hopes to turn a profit.


your saying that we h ave no steel workers in America and we have no steel mills in America that can produce this steel?



In the end both are going to go do something else that is more profitable for them in the long run.


Like imposing new tariffs to other countries so America can be more profitable?

ok

[mrhorseplayer]

yes elysiantraveller I am listening Im listening to someone who knows exactly what they are talking about that knows whats best for the American economy including the American worker im listening to President Trump

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

You aren't listening.

The government shouldn't be manipulating the economy to produce inferior products domestically. Why should we it's not like we can export those products elsewhere. Instead in services and fields like STEM we enjoy advantages and those make up the bulk of our exports. A great America is one with a dynamic and adaptive global economy. Not a turtle that wants to hide in its shell.



We are at 4% unemployment. We don't have a shortage of jobs.



EVERYBODY. Making products you can produce well and cheaper than competitors is always better for the worker. 1) His profit margins are better and 2) he has a larger market because he can sell it globally.

Trump makes his shirts and ties overseas because the workers are cheaper and there are more of them.

We import steel from Germany because they already have the trained workforce and the mills.

The would-be American tie and shirt maker either has to take an extremely low wage or not be able to export his product.

The would be steel worker has to first get trained and then open up a new steel mill before he hopes to turn a profit.

In the end both are going to go do something else that is more profitable for them in the long run.

There are things in this dark, fallen, confused, chaotic, untrustworthy world for which a smart nation would not want to be depend on other nations. However, neither ties or shirts are one of those things. But steel is. If we should ever get into a war, the U.S. should not have to depend on its supply of metal from overseas. Or for that matter, if any of our key suppliers were to get caught up in a conflict of any sort by one of our enemies, our supply pipeline would likely be sorely compromised. Not an enviable position to be in.

[elysiantraveller]

.says you who takes up for europe and iran

since when did it drop to 4%? It dripped after President Trump took office wow that shows he knows what hes doing and it also shows those tariffs are the right thing to do for America.

The best for the American worker is to produce more products in America.

Again with the new tariffs maybe President Trump will get his ties and shirts made here in the USA only time will tell

Your saying that American workers do not have the training to make steel LOL or the mills to produce the steel? With the new tariffs we can start producing more steel and purchase less that would produce more American Jobs

your saying that we h ave no steel workers in America and we have no steel mills in America that can produce this steel?

Like imposing new tariffs to other countries so America can be more profitable?

This has nothing to do with anything. I want a US economy making stuff it can export.



It doesn't show anything. Unemployment has been steadily dropping for awhile. If anything it means we shouldn't be putting workers into industries they aren't needed in like steel, shirts, and ties. Services, STEM, stuff we can export should be the focus... where we have the advantages.



Of course it is! But what he is making should be something he's competitive at globally so he can sell it here there and everywhere.



Why would he do that? He has to pay American workers more. The ties will be more expensive domestically and a guy in another country won't buy them because another country can make and sell him the same thing cheaper.



You have to train the workers and open steel mills. These are upfront expenses before you begin to turn a profit. If a profit was there why isn't someone doing it already? This is all simple Economics 101 Supply/Demand stuff. We supply about 75% of our steel inputs. The rest of the world supplies the other 25% cheaper than we could do it ourselves. If we could do it the American worker and investor would already be seizing on the opportunity to turn a profit. Instead they go elsewhere for their profits.

The problem with a tariff policy is that if we decide to make that steel 25% of steel more expensive so the American investor/worker can turn a profit... Sure we can hire more steel workers and open more mills but that investor/worker still won't compete globally because their steel is cheaper and they already have a surplus.

PLUS you lose out on the potentially greater profits of that investor/worker doing something else they can sell to a wider market.

Here is a domestic example:

If Trump were to place a tax (tariffs are taxes remember) on all forms of news distribution but printed form what would the outcome be? Sure magazines and newspapers would hire more people. The Dennis the Menaces of the neighborhood can get back to their paper routes. But would you be going all in to invest in the local newspaper? Is that a sound long term strategy in your eyes?

I lost interest after point 5 as they become repetitive.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There are things in this dark, fallen, confused, chaotic, untrustworthy world for which a smart nation would not want to be depend on other nations. However, neither ties or shirts are one of those things. But steel is. If we should ever get into a war, the U.S. should not have to depend on its supply of metal from overseas. Or for that matter, if any of our key suppliers were to get caught up in a conflict of any sort by one of our enemies, our supply pipeline would likely be sorely compromised. Not an enviable position to be in.

This is the best logic I've seen and it works for the national security argument.

Still not a great one for a unprovoked tariff but one nonetheless...

Problem is in that scenario we are going to be paying more for steel regardless of where it comes from whether domestically or globally. Under the tariff system we pay more for it now AND later.

Plus... rationing... it was a real thing once.

We can agree to disagree on a wartime economy during peacetime but at least your point is congruent.

Last I checked we don't have orders for 6 Iowa's and 5 Montana's.

We already spend like we're fighting WW3 anyway.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

How do you know what President Trump is upset about?

Because he tweets about those things everyday at great lengths.

I didnt know the solar panel market employed so many people. How many people in the USA lots jobs in the solar panel market due to tariffs be specific? Could that be a short term loss with lots more gains when production of the products used to make solar panes are made in USA?

You keep arguing about things like this while admitting that you don't know anything about the specifics. But you insist that Trump is right and everyone else is wrong, without any data. You might try Google.

If you did, you would find that people in the industry estimated that over 20,000 solar panel installers would lose their jobs, and maybe a few hundred new jobs in manufacturing would be created.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/23/news...ump/index.html

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

We already spend like we're fighting WW3 anyway.

Yeah...well...it's the kind of world in which we live, sadly. There won't be any
beating of swords into plowshares or spears into pruning hooks in this age.