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Old 11-08-2010, 03:40 PM   #46
Steve R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
http://www.drf.com/news/breeders-cup...s-through-roof

Excerpt:

The television rating of the final hour of the Saturday ESPN-TV telecast of the Breeders’ Cup this year was nearly triple that of the television rating last year, according to figures provided by ESPN on Monday.
Was that from 1% to 3% or something like that? Regardless, I am pretty sure it won't bring new players to the races. If fan favorites like Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, John Henry, Cigar and Curlin couldn't do it, you can bet Zenyatta won't either.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:47 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Steve R
And her five fraudulent Grade 1 wins were about as impressive as allowance races at Turfway Park while his wins were achieved against the best Grade 1-quality males in the U.S. The highlight of her season before the Classic was narrowly defeating two sprinting fillies that were 20-1 on the BC F&M Sprint morning line and she didn't win a singe race all year that had another 2010 Grade 1 winner in it. Giving her the award would be criminal...and IMO it would highlight the intellectual dishonesty that seems to permeate the industry.

There's no such thing as a fradulent grade 1 win. Grade 1 is grade 1, they're all very hard races.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:49 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Steve R
And her five fraudulent Grade 1 wins were about as impressive as allowance races at Turfway Park while his wins were achieved against the best Grade 1-quality males in the U.S. The highlight of her season before the Classic was narrowly defeating two sprinting fillies that were 20-1 on the BC F&M Sprint morning line and she didn't win a singe race all year that had another 2010 Grade 1 winner in it. Giving her the award would be criminal...and IMO it would highlight the intellectual dishonesty that seems to permeate the industry.
You write that first sentence and then take others to task for "intellectual dishonesty?"
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:58 PM   #49
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I don't get involved in opinions about awards.

Based on industry insider awards in other industries, the Oscars, Emmies, Music, etc. -----all of which I don't follow or watch----I can say that I have rarely, if ever, purchased or followed, any media or product based on the chosen winners.


I thought it was funny when I called Toyota today to make a service appt., that the receptionist mentioned Z to me, as did the service manager when I got him next. LOL Of course, my Toyota is in Hot Springs, so even if people don't wager races, they are very racing-aware, due to Oaklawn.

What I like about that town.
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:00 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by oddsmaven
Not a surprise to hear excuses in this game, but it's reaching a ridiculous level with such a popular horse..even some of the writers are being silly...Z's fans are sure willing to throw objectivity completely out the window.

Zenyetta was impressive, but they give Blame no credit for digging in and holding her off...about a sixteeth out, she had enough momentum and time to collar Blame, but Blame was too strong.

Now some want to give her the award because they also want to count races from other years for HOY 2010

That the JCGC counts as much as the BC Classic

That a head victory doesn't really count - I guess you have to win by open lengths

That restricted Grade I's are as important as open Grade I's

And Zenyatta should be given HOY because she had too much dirt kicked in her face. Yeah, that's convincing.
All good points. Since only wins by open lengths count, I suppose we can really only count Zenyatta's Apple Blossom... Maybe Quality Road should be HOY after all!
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
There's no such thing as a fradulent grade 1 win. Grade 1 is grade 1, they're all very hard races.
Nonsense. "Grade 1" is a designation assigned months before the event without any knowledge of the starting field. Theoretically, a Grade 1 could feature Zenyatta against a $5K claimer coming off a last place finish at Turf Paradise. If races were graded after the fact based on the actual quality of the race, Most of Zenyatta's races would rightfully be downgraded. If you actually believe a neck win over a listed stakes winner with a record of 3 wins in 25 starts followed 2 lengths back by a listed marathon turf stakes winner with 4 wins in 36 starts represents a Grade 1 quality race you probably should be involved in another sport requiring fewer analytical skills.
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by RXB
You write that first sentence and then take others to task for "intellectual dishonesty?"
Recheck the field of the Hirsch and get back to me before criticizing anyone for suggesting it might be the equivalent of a Turfway Park allowance. Calling it a Grade 1 in the sense of what Grade 1 is supposed to represent is absolutely intellectually dishonest even if technically correct. Maybe you just like labels so you don't have to think critically.
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Steve R
Recheck the field of the Hirsch and get back to me before criticizing anyone for suggesting it might be the equivalent of a Turfway Park allowance. Calling it a Grade 1 in the sense of what Grade 1 is supposed to represent is absolutely intellectually dishonest even if technically correct. Maybe you just like labels so you don't have to think critically.
Nice try. You referred to all five of them as "fraudulent." I think you need to take your own advice regarding critical thinking, as I'd just love to watch horses like St. Trinians and Switch take on TP allowance horses.
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:58 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by RXB
Nice try. You referred to all five of them as "fraudulent." I think you need to take your own advice regarding critical thinking, as I'd just love to watch horses like St. Trinians and Switch take on TP allowance horses.
You really don't get it, do you? Do you even know what a metaphor is? Switch (3 for 10 lifetime) and Rinterval (3 for 25 lifetime) wound up as sprinters that started in the BC F&M Sprint at 8-1 and 55-1 and never exceeded a 100 Beyer. St Trinians was a low level handicapper at second tier courses in England before stepping up a bit on SoCal plastic but was trounced by males in the Santa Anita Handicap yet finished only a half length behind the queen. Then there's Taptam with a lifetime 9 for 31 who was beaten 10 1/2 and 14 lengths in her two previous graded stakes attempts but got to within 4 1/2 of Zenyatta. How about Dance To My Tune (4 for 35) with two listed stakes wins in Canada but able to stay within 1 1/4 lengths of "the greatest mare ever"? On further consideration I'd say not one of those fives races legitimately deserved a graded stakes designation. But that's what you get when you grade races months before they are run.
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:33 PM   #55
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I know that St. Trinians was good enough to defeat Life Is Sweet fairly convincingly, the same Life Is Sweet that dismantled the Ladies' Classic field last fall but couldn't lay a glove on Zenyatta whenever she tried. And Switch was good enough to get a win over Blind Luck, in addition to running second in a BC race on the weekend.

No horse can win 19 in a row, or 16 in a row, etc., without facing some modest competition along the way, that's for sure. But no mare can win 14 consecutive Gr 1 races, including the Distaff one year and the Classic the next year, and then almost win the Classic again in the following year unless she's pretty damn far up the list of female racehorses. We're talking about a 6YO mare in November; how many horses are still at that level of form at the end of their 6YO campaign? Maybe you have the stats on the % of Gr 1 older horse dirt races that have been won by 6YO's. I'm guessing it's rather miniscule. I think that the 4YO or 5YO Zenyatta probably would've won on Saturday.

The argument was never totally about Zenyatta for me, really. In a micro sense she was the subject but in a macro view it was more about people being so reliant on speed figures-- especially, the Beyer figures, since they're the most available and well-known numbers-- to pass judgments. She just happened to be the specific case where many of us felt that the speed figures and margins of victory weren't telling the whole story. I think we've been proved correct to at least some extent.
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Old 11-08-2010, 07:02 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
http://www.drf.com/news/breeders-cup...s-through-roof

Excerpt:

The television rating of the final hour of the Saturday ESPN-TV telecast of the Breeders’ Cup this year was nearly triple that of the television rating last year, according to figures provided by ESPN on Monday.
Wow! Everyone, even those non-horse racing fans, was really excited to see Blame. He really did wonders to inject some interest in this so-called dying sport.
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:28 PM   #57
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Wow! Everyone, even those non-horse racing fans, was really excited to see Blame. He really did wonders to inject some interest in this so-called dying sport.
That's it, encourage those knuckleheads at Breeders' Cup, Limited to overhype one horse again next year.
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:52 PM   #58
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You can thank 60minutes and Andy Rooney for a ton of those viewers
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Old 11-08-2010, 10:18 PM   #59
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Wrong. Not me.
Why not? You just got through telling us that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox
"Which horse promoted more interest in racing this year and captured a nations attention?" has to be a part of the equation in determining HOY.
Who else did that better than Big Brown in 2008? I just figured you would have been singing his praises for HOTY over Curlin...my mistake.
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Old 11-08-2010, 11:15 PM   #60
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People, people, people!!! Do you really care this much about the votes of people most of us don't know? Will a decision one way or the other change the way you feel about your favorite horse? Will it take away any of the joy or excitement that you felt during the year? Why is their opinion any more important than our own?

If in your mind Zenyatta or Blame is HOY, then she/he IS! If in your mind Zenyatta or Ruffian is the greatest female horse of all time, then she IS! Substitute any name in the above, and it's the same. Why is someone else's opinion needed to substantiate what any of us feel?

The day after the Eclipse Awards, my personal feelings will still be the same. And no Eclipse voter, or poster here at Pace Advantage, or any other site will change it.
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