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Old 07-19-2018, 12:02 AM   #16
AJanks
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Question for everyone: Why is it against the code to bunt on a shift? If you can do it, there's no shame in it. Successfully bunting in today's game is a lost skill, anyways...
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:23 AM   #17
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Question for everyone: Why is it against the code to bunt on a shift? If you can do it, there's no shame in it. Successfully bunting in today's game is a lost skill, anyways...
Most of that 'code' is the lack of skill, and the ego-block.

It's also a strategy thing. 'Manufacturing a run' is considered passť. And they're right; Slugging beats small-ball in general.

But most of the time if they are in an extreme shift and giving you a free bunt single, you would benefit from a good bunt.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:17 PM   #18
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Question for everyone: Why is it against the code to bunt on a shift? If you can do it, there's no shame in it. Successfully bunting in today's game is a lost skill, anyways...
Bunting for a hit I agree 100%. In most cases a sacrifice bunt I disagree 100%. The game of baseball has changed a ton. The baseball code needs to keep up.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:40 PM   #19
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Most of that 'code' is the lack of skill, and the ego-block.

It's also a strategy thing. 'Manufacturing a run' is considered passť. And they're right; Slugging beats small-ball in general.

But most of the time if they are in an extreme shift and giving you a free bunt single, you would benefit from a good bunt.
Slugging beats small ball in the regular season.

Manufacturing runs beats relying on the HR in the post season. Always has, and always will. Games often played in cooler weather and HR hitters often worn out by October swinging from their heels for over 500 at bats. Speed and defense don't slump, but power does.
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:58 PM   #20
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Smile Matt Carpenter redeemed

Historic day for one of the guys cited in the original post for whining about the shift.

3HRs 2 Doubles ...

To think, we wanted him to bunt!

https://www.mlb.com/news/matt-carpen...bs/c-286530588
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:40 PM   #21
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It's weird seeing stat lines from stars like Bryce Harper that make guys like Mickey Tettleton seem 'ahead of their time'.
Mickey Tettleton!!! Classic! Ask CJ!! lol
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:45 PM   #22
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Mickey Tettleton!!! Classic! Ask CJ!! lol
I want to hear that story as well!

I remember Mickey as an Oriole / Tiger who had a unique batting stance, seemed to walk or strikeout or homer half the time, and claimed his batting power came from Froot Loops cereal.
Offensive numbers actually pretty good considering that he was a catcher for a significant amount of games...
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Old 07-22-2018, 02:29 PM   #23
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Mickey Tettleton had that batting stance where he'd start with bat relaxed and pointed toward the catcher... (he'd come to a more traditional position as he timed the pitch and started his stride)


Opposite extreme from that time was Julio Franco his bat was also parallel to the ground, but he'd point the barrel-end the opposite way toward the pitcher...


I wonder if kids today can mimic and identify all the stances like we could?
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:27 AM   #24
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Can't some of these dead-pull hitters even lay down a BUNT the other way? The way some of these shifts are set up...a well-placed bunt could go for a DOUBLE.

No, because its just what Valuist stated. Every kid is not taught how to hit ( all the moves and all the fundamentals). The sad thing is the best hitters are the ones that don't get taught. That's why you have the stars bitching about the shift. From the time a coach sees power in a kid....they see one thing.....pulling shots. Most times....he will never be taught to bunt or go the other way.....hardly ever. Or not enough time will be spent to master it. They want power from these guys. The art of "scratching" off runs is almost a lost one. Unless its a huge game with great pitchers. Just like he pointed out.

There was a replay today where one of these guys bunted and it worked. I forgot to notice who it was or what team it was. But when guys are bitching and looking for a rule change...……...you know they can't handle it with the bat. Plus, its hard to develop and adjust at that level, when you weren't taught since you were 13 or 14 years old. Just like he stated.
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Last edited by burnsy; 07-23-2018 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 07-23-2018, 12:38 PM   #25
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I watch the games more than I ever did...because now I bet on them on a daily basis. But the frustrating thing, from a bettor's perspective, is that the bullpens are getting more innings than ever before...and there is no reliable way by which to form an adequate handicapping rating for the bullpen. I know how to assess the prowess of the starting pitchers and the closers...but there is no way of knowing which middle-relievers will get into the game.
Fangraphs has a lot of stat breakdowns. You can get quite a few specifics for team bullpens including strikeout to walk ratio, soft and hard contact %s. I believe strikeout/walk ratio is much more significant for relievers, as they are often brought in during high leverage situations. Strikeouts are overrated for starting pitchers, IMO. They often end up piling up pitch counts too early in a game.
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Old 07-23-2018, 05:48 PM   #26
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Most of that 'code' is the lack of skill, and the ego-block.

It's also a strategy thing. 'Manufacturing a run' is considered passť. And they're right; Slugging beats small-ball in general.

But most of the time if they are in an extreme shift and giving you a free bunt single, you would benefit from a good bunt.
It's an interesting thing. If teams were shifting in the 50's like today and Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle decided to bunt the other teams to death, their value would drop while their BA rose. The shifting team would be happy not to watch their balls fly out of the park. Guys like Mantle and Mays (and now like Giancarlo Stanton) are getting paid to give the fans the most exciting play in baseball - the home run. I hate the strikeouts, but it's still exciting to know teams like the Yankees, Houston, or Boston are never out of a game.

When I played baseball in high school it was expected every player could move a man from second to third by hitting to the right side, or bunt a man to second.

In a funny way the strikeout can be less deleterious to the team than hitting a grounder for a double play.

Hitters often wait for pitches now. If they don't get "their pitch" they may wind up returning to the bench without ever getting the bat off their shoulder. Baseball will never be the same game it was. I guess you either adapt to change or go to another sport.
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:57 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing View Post
It's an interesting thing. If teams were shifting in the 50's like today and Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle decided to bunt the other teams to death, their value would drop while their BA rose. The shifting team would be happy not to watch their balls fly out of the park. Guys like Mantle and Mays (and now like Giancarlo Stanton) are getting paid to give the fans the most exciting play in baseball - the home run. I hate the strikeouts, but it's still exciting to know teams like the Yankees, Houston, or Boston are never out of a game.

When I played baseball in high school it was expected every player could move a man from second to third by hitting to the right side, or bunt a man to second.

In a funny way the strikeout can be less deleterious to the team than hitting a grounder for a double play.

Hitters often wait for pitches now. If they don't get "their pitch" they may wind up returning to the bench without ever getting the bat off their shoulder. Baseball will never be the same game it was. I guess you either adapt to change or go to another sport.
The top HR hitters still only hit a HR about once every 15 plate appearances. There have been a few hitters who have bunted against the shift, or were more willing to hit to the opposite field. After a number of times, the shifts stop. They may still be played to pull, but no severe shift.

IMO the game is getting ruined and the obsession with pitch velocity is driving it. It's meant more strikeouts, more walks, more foul balls, more full counts, and some more HRs as well, but all of those factors are prolonging the game. And not only slowing the pace, but less balls in play. While defense hasn't been eliminated, its been diminished. Baserunning has been largely eliminated.

Maybe some day the NFL will be flag football and for MLB they will just have a pitcher, a hitter and a wall with a strike zone marked and if a ball gets hit a certain distance its a double, HR, etc.
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing View Post
It's an interesting thing. If teams were shifting in the 50's like today and Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle decided to bunt the other teams to death, their value would drop while their BA rose. The shifting team would be happy not to watch their balls fly out of the park. Guys like Mantle and Mays (and now like Giancarlo Stanton) are getting paid to give the fans the most exciting play in baseball - the home run. I hate the strikeouts, but it's still exciting to know teams like the Yankees, Houston, or Boston are never out of a game.

When I played baseball in high school it was expected every player could move a man from second to third by hitting to the right side, or bunt a man to second.

In a funny way the strikeout can be less deleterious to the team than hitting a grounder for a double play.

Hitters often wait for pitches now. If they don't get "their pitch" they may wind up returning to the bench without ever getting the bat off their shoulder. Baseball will never be the same game it was. I guess you either adapt to change or go to another sport.
I think Ted Williams was the first to face a shift. His success probably deterred future efforts of such a strategy.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:54 PM   #29
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some Williams stuff , shift related and otherwise

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
I think Ted Williams was the first to face a shift. His success probably deterred future efforts of such a strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyb View Post
Over the years, Ted Williams encountered shifts quite often, and for a long time he, famously and proudly, didn't do much in the way of altering his approach with the bat. None other than Ty Cobb called him "stupid" for not being more adaptable.



Finally, a bit of advice from another great hitter helped Williams attack the shift by going the other way without tinkering too much with his cherished and carefully honed swing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Williams in Science of Hitting
When I had such a hard time with Boudreau’s shift, and ones like it that sprung
up in 1947 and afterward, I survived by learning to hit to left field. Everybody was
saying—and the Boston writers were writing—that I wasn’t trying to hit to left, that
I was too stubborn, that all I cared about was ramming the ball into the teeth of
that shift, getting base hits in spite of it. The fact was, I was having a hard time
learning to hit to left. It wasn’t because I didn’t get any advice. Of that I got a
truckload.
Ty Cobb wrote me a two-page letter, outlining how he would do it. We met at
Yankee Stadium during the 1947 World Series, and he took me around behind a
telephone booth and we talked. He said, “Oh, boy, Ted, if they had ever pulled that
stuff on me, that drastic shift . . . ,” and his mouth was watering, seeing in his
mind’s eye the immortal Ty Cobb lashing the ball into that open range in left field.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TW
Well, Cobb was more of a push hitter, a slap hitter. He choked up two inches from
the bottom and held the bat with his hands four inches apart. He stood close to the
plate, his hands forward. He had great ability to push the ball, to lash hits all
around. He was a great athlete, maybe the greatest, but he was a completely
different animal from me, and his words were like Greek.

The arc of my swing was much greater than Cobb’s What he said would apply to
guys more his type, guys who choked up on the bat more and pushed the ball
around. That wasn’t in me. I was down, with a longer stroke, a greater arc.

When I beat the shift, I did it by taking my stance a little farther from the plate,
striding slightly more into the pitch—but concentrating on getting on top of the ball
and pushing it. A push swing, an inside-out swing, fully extended, the hands ahead
of the fat part of the bat. This produced contact at 90 degrees or more from the
direction of the pitch, and sent the ball to the left of the pitcher’s box, away from
the shift. Almost like hitting pepper.
Pepper can help you with this technique. In
fact, pepper is a great warmup game for any hitter, and as a manager I’m going to
insist that the Senators do more of it. I was always amazed when I’d go to the Red
Sox camp those last years to see them playing volleyball, when pepper is ten times
better exercise for ballplayers—pitchers included.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TW on his own 'idol' of sorts
No hitter has it all. There probably never has been what you would call the
“complete” hitter. Ruth struck out more than he should have. Cobb didn’t have the
power, he didn’t have great style. Harry Heilmann wasn’t serious enough. Shoeless
Joe Jackson must have come close because all the old-time hitters used to talk about
how great he was, how complete a hitter he was, but of all the hitters I saw—if I had
to name one guy—I suppose it would be Rogers Hornsby. Hornsby was the closest
to the complete hitter—style, power, smartness, everything.
I’ll never forget as a twenty-year-old kid in camp with the Minneapolis team at
Daytona Beach, standing around the batting cage or in the lobby of the hotel,
picking Hornsby’s brains for everything I could, even personal things I had no right
knowing: How much money did you lose at the track? How much did you bet?
And
he’d stay out there with me every day after practice and we’d have hitting contests,
just the two of us, and that old rascal would just keeping zinging those line drives.
Hornsby used to say, “A great hitter isn’t born, he’s made. He’s made out of
practice, fault correction and confidence.” Hornsby was talking about himself, I
think. He had a lot of confidence. He wasn’t a very diplomatic guy. He’d come right
out and say things, whatever was on his mind. If the owner of the club said
something about baseball he didn’t like, Hornsby would just say, “What the hell do
you know about it?” But he knew what it took to hit.
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Last edited by Robert Fischer; 07-24-2018 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:35 PM   #30
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I don't know if anyone has posted this, but what a perfect way to combat the shift.

(Could not find this video anywhere but Facebook. If anyone has a better link, please post.)

Could easily be titled, "Bunt for a Double."

https://facebook.com/thebsbking/vide...B"tn"%3A"O"%7D
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