The Greatest of All Time - Bob Baffert

[dilanesp]

Where's Baffert's lawsuit against Churchill? His lawyers promised one.

My theory is that they are going to wait to the very last minute in the hope they can bamboozle a trial judge with a sob story about how it would be unfair to these owners etc., etc., right on the cusp of the race. Because they've already figured out that if this case gets before any sort of an appellate court it's going to be thrown out and Baffert's horses are going to be out of the race. Their only chance is with some wildcard trial judge, and only if they can do it right before the race when there isn't enough time for Churchill to appeal it and they will have to just take the entries.

That's the only thing that makes sense here. If they were bluffing, the bluff obviously isn't going to work, and if they thought they had a meritorious claim, they'd sue now and win and get the owners some peace of mind.

[stlseeeek]

dilanesp

lots and lots of Liberal judges who would rule in favor of Baffert, even if they had pictures of him injecting the needles, and hacking the horses who broke down, with an axe.

NEVER underestimate the stupidity of Liberal judges and their view of the laws of this land.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by stlseeeek

dilanesp

lots and lots of Liberal judges who would rule in favor of Baffert, even if they had pictures of him injecting the needles, and hacking the horses who broke down, with an axe.

NEVER underestimate the stupidity of Liberal judges and their view of the laws of this land.

Wow, this is remarkably dumb.

There's a room for this garbage....and this isn't it.

[stlseeeek]

Bob has them juiced out of their gourds.

Not only are they getting hooked to fast speeds, but are clearing and winning by day light. And the CHB gives no shits.

Wharton better come back and run better, or well watch him run up the track and be vanned off, ala D.Wayne Lukas.

[classhandicapper]

I’m going to assume Baffert is being watched very closely these days. It doesn’t seem to have mattered much because his horses keep running a hole in wind. He has the occasional dud or horse that goes bad before jumping up to reach its potential, but I’m not seeing much difference in the profiles I track.

It’s kind of shocking to me that most of this hasn’t been resolved heading into these points preps.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I’m going to assume Baffert is being watched very closely these days. It doesn’t seem to have mattered much because his horses keep running a hole in wind. He has the occasional dud or horse that goes bad before jumping up to reach its potential, but I’m not seeing much difference in the profiles I track.

It’s kind of shocking to me that most of this hasn’t been resolved heading into these points preps.

What we learned over the last couple of years that the only surveillance that works is wiretaps. Testing doesn't work. There is a ton of money being spent on testing that doesn't work.

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I’m going to assume Baffert is being watched very closely these days. It doesn’t seem to have mattered much because his horses keep running a hole in wind...

If you started in this game prior to 1998 (the year that performance-enhancing drugs seemed to permeate all sports) you can easily see that what Baffert is doing today is, let's say, unnatural. There can be only two explanations for this. Either he's the greatest trainer in history (and by a large margin) or his horses are aided by performance enhancers of which cannot be detected in a test. If you assume no one persons training acumen can give them the kind of separation that Baffert has had in the last 6-7 years, then what other explanation can there be for what he is doing?

If he is cheating (which in my mind is well past the debate stage) then he has taken a position not many of us would take in light of all the negative publicity. I think most people would have dialed it back and allowed for all of this to play out and die down. Instead, he's attempting to win every 3YO prep possible and put the game in a difficult position heading into the Kentucky Derby.

There are a lot of trainers out there obviously cheating to gain results. No question about it. But there is only one trainer, in my opinion, carelessly involved in the destruction of the entire sport.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

If he is cheating (which in my mind is well past the debate stage) then he has taken a position not many of us would take in light of all the negative publicity. I think most people would have dialed it back and allowed for all of this to play out and die down. Instead, he's attempting to win every 3YO prep possible and put the game in a difficult position heading into the Kentucky Derby.

I still don't think it's going to happen, but I warned earlier in the thread that if his owners remained loyal, they could threaten to turn the Derby into a kind of Preakness prep. At the time, he didn't seem to have much beyond Corniche who seems to be behind schedule, but it's not unusual for him to either unveil someone new a bit late or for a lightly raced highly regarded horse of his to explode forward. Enter Messier.

I usually attend either the Haskell or Travers depending on who shows up. Right now Ocean Place and the Haskell is early favorite.

[Bustin Stones]

Or is Baffert saving the sport by finally proving that current methods of detection are inadequate?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

If you started in this game prior to 1998 (the year that performance-enhancing drugs seemed to permeate all sports) you can easily see that what Baffert is doing today is, let's say, unnatural. There can be only two explanations for this. Either he's the greatest trainer in history (and by a large margin) or his horses are aided by performance enhancers of which cannot be detected in a test. If you assume no one persons training acumen can give them the kind of separation that Baffert has had in the last 6-7 years, then what other explanation can there be for what he is doing?

If he is cheating (which in my mind is well past the debate stage) then he has taken a position not many of us would take in light of all the negative publicity. I think most people would have dialed it back and allowed for all of this to play out and die down. Instead, he's attempting to win every 3YO prep possible and put the game in a difficult position heading into the Kentucky Derby.

There are a lot of trainers out there obviously cheating to gain results. No question about it. But there is only one trainer, in my opinion, carelessly involved in the destruction of the entire sport.

Good post

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

horses are aided by performance enhancers of which cannot be detected in a test.

Originally Posted by Bustin Stones

current methods of detection are inadequate?

you guys are catching on

I bet Messier yesterday. My only apprehension was bad luck (gate/break incident) or some kind of whimpy behavior by the connections (given the scrutiny). Unless he was withdrawing or something and in terrible fitness, I was confident that Messier would win. I was confident he'd win with or without blood builders as well.

The was wildly overrated in spite of Callaghan's training extremely well, the other BB Wharton was not at this level, and the ?DougO'Neil entry was lucky to win the previous race.
Messier was $2.40 fair, but Paying >$3.00.

I have never been impressed by the runner up . Credit him for the heart he showed, but the didn't fire whatsoever. may be a slight underlay next time.

Not a performance where I said "Oh man I can see the xyz(specific undetectable PEDs widespread in racing sports and all sports)... he just ran about what I expected, while the fringe rival didn't fire.
The margin was pretty.
Speed figures should be near the top of most Derby Trail horses at this time (haven't followed)...

the Oaklawn? Stakes last weekend was just weak. I liked Kavod a bit a huge price and that Dash Attack horse was wildly overbet, but I passed because the Baffert horse was fine for that bunch. Wasn't even a big performance, just ran on while the big price Kavod faded to I think 4th.

Baffert has toned it down a bit at times. Those are the times when you don't see every rising star finishing the workouts around the turn and gallop out like top stakes horses. Those are the times when you see most horses depending on simply being fit and being an expensive quality animal that they bought from a breeders who have given the horse a 'head start'(I won't get into that)... Those are the times when one or two 'sweetheart' female horses are the only ones jumping off the screen with the tell tale signs.

There are trainers and owners whose horses were running beyond their baselines, and then fell off after scrutiny with most everything. At least with Baffert, I've had the apprehension with several times over the years at various high-scrutiny phases. Most of these guys have big egos. They feel like they always have to be "on". There's students who take an adderall pill to fuel a massive breakthrough project, and then put them away for a week or two. There's guys who take a 'TRT' shot or a Cialis pill once in a while as directed. Then there's guys who think they need to be constantly using. Guys who won't take an open mic at a comedy club without blowing a bag of heroin...

And you worry about that, any time the heat comes down.
We don't have perfect information. I may be able to look at a ballplayer, or horse, or a netflix actor, or a weatherman, or a podcaster, or ... ..., and have a way above average 'guess' at exactly what type of PED program these guys are on. But even with a little more awareness and competence there, I don't have infallible inside info. Some guy may just have a pituitary thing going on or great genetics or he's a lifetime iron-pumping narcissist whose wife happens to cook the world's best fried chicken... it's speculation it's voodoo
but this is a gambling game. You are allowed to have 'apprehension'. You are allowed to let your comprehension extend occasionally beyond and into your apprehension. On a profound topic (like hey Messier should be $2.40 but he's going to pay $3.20 or so, but perhaps there is more to this than I know).

[affirmedny]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I’m going to assume Baffert is being watched very closely these days. It doesn’t seem to have mattered much because his horses keep running a hole in wind.

He doesn't strike me as someone stupid enough to be doping horses after seeing Navarro go to jail for five years.

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by affirmedny

He doesn't strike me as someone stupid enough to be doping horses after seeing Navarro go to jail for five years.

Ridiculous.

[stlseeeek]

navarro is a clown, every one knew he was a dirt bag cheater, and had zero respect.

the racing media love bob, tvg cant stop themselves from being on his junk hourly.

[the little guy]

It's so good to see politics still aren't allowed in the racing section.