Malaysian passenger jet missing

[Mystic]

I didn't and I agree. There is no way there are any survivors at this point unless it landed in a secret place.

[davew]

I suspect they meant hope in recovering bodies, which is important in some religions over there.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by davew

I suspect they meant hope in recovering bodies, which is important in some religions over there.

never really thought about it as religious. Being able to do something with a body is about closure for the families to me. I'm not religious, but would want the body as well.

[Marshall Bennett]

What would the pressure do to a human body having been trapped in 16,000 feet of water this long? Only 8 bodies were recovered from the South African jet that disappeared in the Indian Ocean in a similar depth in 1987. Don't know if the depth had any effect on them although I read those 8 bodies weren't intact and in pieces.

[tucker6]

A gruesome ending no doubt. Many would not be whole. Those that remained whole would either be trapped in wreckage at the bottom or floating. In all cases, we become part of the food chain, so remains would decrease over time. It's going on five weeks, so finding any human remains is decreasing daily to a point where finding bones is your best hope. Not a pretty picture.

[redshift1]

Originally Posted by Marshall Bennett

What would the pressure do to a human body having been trapped in 16,000 feet of water this long? Only 8 bodies were recovered from the South African jet that disappeared in the Indian Ocean in a similar depth in 1987. Don't know if the depth had any effect on them although I read those 8 bodies weren't intact and in pieces.

Pressure would not have much effect since the interior and exterior body pressure would reach equilibrium over the descent from surface to sea bottom. When submarines crumple from pressure it's the disparity between interior/exterior pressure. Body condition probably effected more by angle and speed of impact.

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[fast4522]

Originally Posted by tucker6

A gruesome ending no doubt. Many would not be whole. Those that remained whole would either be trapped in wreckage at the bottom or floating. In all cases, we become part of the food chain, so remains would decrease over time. It's going on five weeks, so finding any human remains is decreasing daily to a point where finding bones is your best hope. Not a pretty picture.

I do not think your on the mark with this one, sure the aircraft is likely to be in 3 or maybe 4 main parts with the majority of the dead in their seat belts. Two miles plus deep in cold water may be perfect for preserving these lost souls. I think that they can remain in a watery grave for some time without much decomposition. If they do not surface the aircraft six months from now, I think most would be surprised of exactly how many body's that actually get accounted for when they get everything to the surface. Absence of mechanical failure recorded on the black box will present more questions than are answered.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by fast4522

I do not think your on the mark with this one, sure the aircraft is likely to be in 3 or maybe 4 main parts with the majority of the dead in their seat belts. Two miles plus deep in cold water may be perfect for preserving these lost souls. I think that they can remain in a watery grave for some time without much decomposition. If they do not surface the aircraft six months from now, I think most would be surprised of exactly how many body's that actually get accounted for when they get everything to the surface. Absence of mechanical failure recorded on the black box will present more questions than are answered.

I think you'd be surprised then as to how susceptible the human body is to breakage when careening at 500 mph from 35,000 feet at a 60 degree angle into water. If you think any but one or two (maybe) are still strapped in their seats, good luck with that. If you believe the plane is in anything other than smaller pieces rather than 3-4 sections, you are dreaming.

[fast4522]

I have a open mind until the data suggests otherwise. I have ruled out that the aircraft was shot down, also it had no jet fuel left upon impact with the water. Its airspeed when it hit the water was not transmitted to the satellite and should be available when the black box (orange) is recovered. What data did you garner from CNN that has any meaning at all?

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by fast4522

I have a open mind until the data suggests otherwise. I have ruled out that the aircraft was shot down, also it had no jet fuel left upon impact with the water. Its airspeed when it hit the water was not transmitted to the satellite and should be available when the black box (orange) is recovered. What data did you garner from CNN that has any meaning at all?

I don't watch CNN. I attended physics classes in college 30 years ago.

An empty 777 weighs 287 tons. Add passengers, luggage, and cargo, and you are looking at a 350 ton tube descending to earth even without fuel. From similar accidents that were filmed, planes without fuel do not glide at a low angle in descent, they fall at steep angles, say 60 degrees or more. Lastly a 350 ton object falling from 35,000 feet would likely not lose too much of its airspeed even after fuel is expended due to gravity pulling it down into free fall mode to terminal velocity. Unless of course it was doing cartwheels. But in that case, the passengers would be torn to shreds that way too.

It doesn't take an open mind or CNN to calculate these things.

[fast4522]

Now lets say it had no jet fuel to speak of, but was still running on fumes with a pilot attempting to land it on the water. Your physics changes dramatically with a pilot still in some control right? Forward of the wings gets torn off and sinks 2 to five miles from the rest of the aircraft ?

[Marshall Bennett]

If the aircraft had any degree of nose-down descent to it, the plane likely would have disintegrated and the passengers ripped apart by their seat belts as well as the impact with the water.

[fast4522]

I believe they are sniffing around the right location as we post now, if they have located the tail section it will take a month to wench it up. Speculation of the condition of the lost can wait, don't ya think? Many things do not add up, maybe when tragedy strikes they never do.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by fast4522

Now lets say it had no jet fuel to speak of, but was still running on fumes with a pilot attempting to land it on the water. Your physics changes dramatically with a pilot still in some control right? Forward of the wings gets torn off and sinks 2 to five miles from the rest of the aircraft ?

Jet engines don't run on fumes. In fact, the last satellite "hand shake" attempted by the engines was out of time sequence, which indicates that they were having a malfunction (ran out of fuel most likely). Out-of-sequence hand-shakes were the protocol for engine trouble. Once out of fuel, the plane will eventually descend in an out of control mode even if the pilot is trying his best to control it. It is not the same science used with gliders. The plane WILL fall like a rock at some point on the way down and there is nothing that can be done about it.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by fast4522

Now lets say it had no jet fuel to speak of, but was still running on fumes with a pilot attempting to land it on the water. Your physics changes dramatically with a pilot still in some control right? Forward of the wings gets torn off and sinks 2 to five miles from the rest of the aircraft ?

Not really. As tucker was saying they aren't built like gliders and the surface area of their ailerons, rudder, and elevators are significantly smaller given the weight of the object. This is why airspeed is so pivotal to the ability to control the aircraft the speed and hence amount of air allows for control even with a smaller surface area. That's why larger airplanes need longer runways so on approach and take off they have more time to maintain or reach a manuerverable velocity.

A good Hollywood example of this would be the flat spins in Top Gun where the air pressure in front of Tom Cruise's plane is disrupted causing a loss of lift and the ability to maintain control.

While flight sims are non-existent anymore in the gaming industry their used to be great ones with extremely accurate physics. In those sims you could throw hundreds of different types of aircraft into spins and a very few had the ability to recover, without thrust hardly any. A plane the size of a 777 forget about it.