silliness - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

46zilzal · 03-28-2005, 05:24 PM

Animals have ability or not. They might be an excellent sprinter and a mediocre router, or they may step up on the lawn over the dirt. THE ANIMAL'S INHERENT ABILITY IS THE ANIMAL'S, NOT some silly class structure that a racing secretary imposes on it, or some irrelevant panel of handicapper's. Horse might be declining today, another improving, but AGAIN it is the horse, not the class structure one should look at.

When an animal goes up or down in this "artificial" class, it still performs to the limits of it's current ability MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE from this artificial class some imposes upon the horse.

Ah, but all hail those who still believe this nonsense

PaceAdvantage · 03-28-2005, 05:34 PM

So then, you don't subscribe at all to the herd instinct among horses? There are dominant and submissive roles to be played, even in the horse world.

You don't buy any of that? When a filly of equal ability is entered in a race against all males, you don't think there is anything other than pure raw ability at play during the post parade or the running of the race?

Interesting.....

And by the way, the condescending attitude doesn't bode well outside of off-topic. It's kind of a turn off....

GameTheory · 03-28-2005, 05:34 PM

I don't know anyone who believes that the class of the race is the CAUSE of how an animal runs. But the fact that the trainer put the horse in the race might be a sign that it can run with those that are usually in such races. Claiming prices, allowance conditions, etc are reasonable equalizers/stabilizers as far as attracting horses roughly equal ability-wise, and looking at the conditions of the race certainly has its uses.

But I never heard anyone who believes as you imply. They do believe that lesser/stiffer competition can affect a performance, but that is caused by the animals and not the class. But it was the class that allowed those horses to enter the race...

CryingForTheHorses · 03-28-2005, 05:54 PM

A horse will look another in the eye.Look at them old class horses that run cheap. They can look a 5k claimer in the eye and demoralize them. This old class horse will size up his competition in the paddock and also on the track.The greatest thing about them cheap 'class" horses. When they beat them 5k claimers, Its like a walk in the park.Easy competition makes it easier on your horse and a chance to win again. The trick is to leave him where he can win

46zilzal · 03-28-2005, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

So then, you don't subscribe at all to the herd instinct among horses? There are dominant and submissive roles to be played, even in the horse world.
And by the way, the condescending attitude doesn't bode well outside of off-topic. It's kind of a turn off....

Don't ascribe to that YES.

Just promoting what works FOR ME.You chose what you want.

Condescending???Just MY opinion that's all

46zilzal · 03-28-2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

A horse will look another in the eye.Look at them old class horses that run cheap. They can look a 5k claimer in the eye and demoralize them. This old class horse will size up his competition in the paddock and also on the track.T

Interesting OLD school belief

46zilzal · 03-28-2005, 06:02 PM

Herd instinct, according to ALL the animal studies I have ever read, TAKES A LONG TIME TO DEVELOPE. How long is the "herd" (entrants in a race) actually together?? Not long enough to develope ANY heirarchy and I studied this very pheneomenon as a Zoology major.

ALSO one of the greatest things WE can do PARIMUTUALLY is not act like THE HERD at the windows

schweitz · 03-28-2005, 06:04 PM

46,
You are of course entitled to your opinion---but I strongly disagree with it.

46zilzal · 03-28-2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schweitz

46,
You are of course entitled to your opinion---but I strongly disagree with it.

Good I hope MORE people do

CryingForTheHorses · 03-28-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Interesting OLD school belief

Its very true! Nothing like being on the back of a nice horse sitting besid a cheap horse, Very hard to discribe, like when you move your hands a little..He will just pull away without any urging..Great feeling!

46zilzal · 03-28-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

Its very true! Nothing like being on the back of a nice horse sitting besid a cheap horse, Very hard to discribe, like when you move your hands a little..He will just pull away without any urging..Great feeling!

anthropomorphizing at it's best!!

Tom · 03-28-2005, 06:56 PM

I have seen more than enough data to suggest a class drop improves a horse.

MSW to MdCl is one of the most important drop in all of racing. Alw to Clmg is usually significant.

46, why is that that we do not see a huge number of peaking horses stepping up to GR1 stakes from $20,000 claimers and winning.
Why do horse ship from NYRA to FL and win off by open lengths wehn they have never been out of the back of the pack in previous races?

I went through that whole nonsense with Sartin and he is just plain wrong.
There may not be a big diff from 20K to 50K, but overall, there is a huge diff from cheap horses to class horses.

46zilzal · 03-28-2005, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom

46, why is that that we do not see a huge number of peaking horses stepping up to GR1 stakes from $20,000 claimers and winning.
.

Their performances would eliminate them NOT some man made class structure baloney, just like the maiden fields

DJofSD · 03-28-2005, 07:13 PM

The original statement that is.

Class structures do not define class. It is a way to write races not to analyze horses.

What does herd instinct have to do with a class structure? That's like trying to tell me where I should live depending upon my annual income.

And, yes, one horse can look another an intimidate it.

For me, the so called class of a horse is a combination of how well it runs, how fast, for how long, how often. And how "tough" it is. Does it give up after a couple of bumps? Does it spit out the bit when it can't get the lead? Does it sulk becasue the jock wacks it a couple of times with the whip? Is it able to duck through a hole when asked?

DJofSD

kenwoodallpromos · 03-28-2005, 07:45 PM

I am entralled! Can you give me a reference for a study that shows instinct can be learned? Thanks.
Of course conditions are artificial. All that matters is the relative abilities of the horses whose MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE records qualfy them to run in it.
Old School- or not, I think most species can recognize if another of the same species is older. And all the old schoolers in racing believe stamina comes with age. Find me 1 10f for 2 year olds!