Meadow calls Sartin con man

[Tom]

Tom (Dick) sat in front of me at a seminar in Albany, NY. He really grasped the advanced Sartin programs and was an eager student.
At one break, I introduced myself and told him I was a regular reader of his books. He thanked me and said, "Where has THIS guy been all my life?"

[highnote]

Was this photo taken at the Handicapping Expo in Vegas? What a great photo!

Originally Posted by barn32

The four horsemen of the Sartin "con man" legacy apocalypse.

[xtb]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Not true. Ainslie was quite complimentary of Sartin and his work...and even became a pace handicapping convert during the latter stages of his long handicapping career.

I think Dave meant that he was never a part of PIRCO.

[AltonKelsey]

Maybe it's me , but I never see any examples of Sartin's method posted as evidence of its power.


Yes, there are 1000 hours of audio and text.





Talking about real time examples of why its the holy grail. Seems to be a dearth of that

[Tom]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Maybe it's me , but I never see any examples of Sartin's method posted as evidence of its power.


Yes, there are 1000 hours of audio and text.





Talking about real time examples of why its the holy grail. Seems to be a dearth of that

Why would you expect to see people's work posted?
How many real time example of HSH, of Jcapper, of AllWays do you see?


Well, I have posted examples many time in the past here.
46 used to post examples of Speculator here. And at Pace and Cap, there are COUNTLESS races worked in real
time.

It is not a system - everyone will not get the same horses or the same winners. I think you are looking for RPM type stuff.

And that is the dearth of that.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Not true. Ainslie was quite complimentary of Sartin and his work...and even became a pace handicapping convert during the latter stages of his long handicapping career.

Complimentary and respectful, yes. But not a pace handicapper.

When he visited me in 1991, he told me that pace handicapping was just to complicated for him.

Also said that he did not own a computer.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Maybe it's me , but I never see any examples of Sartin's method posted as evidence of its power.

That's a good thing for Sartin Methodology users.

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Maybe it's me , but I never see any examples of Sartin's method posted as evidence of its power.

Howard always stated "There are no rules." so the successful way one uses it or another shows the multi-faceted, personalized results..

I personally found it was HORRID at many track and GREAT at others..

I followed early speed dominated course and found that the earl/late balance was one of the most outstanding evaluations I EVER USED.

One of the most severe limitations on this software is the use of a single line to predict how a horse will run today...ASKING for sample error.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

One of the most severe limitations on this software is the use of a single line to predict how a horse will run today... .

Paradoxically, that is also its strength.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by highnote

Paradoxically, that is also its strength.

IMO...picking a single past performance line as a barometer for judging the ability of a horse is the height of folly.

[cj]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

IMO...picking a single past performance line as a barometer for judging the ability of a horse is the height of folly.

I think it had more to do with limitations of computing power (or human computing power and the time involved). It would be silly to rely on one line and ignore the rest of the data with the tech available today.

[highnote]

I wrote software that borrowed from Dick Mitchell's All-In-One program in that I made a pace graph of each segment of the race. It looked something like this for the horses that I determined to be contenders in today's upcoming race:

1. -------x---|-----X-----|----X------|
2. ----------x|----------X|-------X---|
3. -----x-----|-----X-----|----------X|

The contender selection was based on a horse's history, but the placement of each horse's X was based on a single pace line for each horse.

The placement of each horse's X was determined by each horse's velocity numbers. It is incredible how accurate this would be. The horse that the graph showed would get the lead, would usually get the lead. The horses' running position at the 2nd call and finish line was often dead on.

I agree with Sartin that horses are creatures of habit. Their running styles are predictable and so are their running times. Sometimes a jockey can get a horse to change, but not always -- especially, older claimers.

MSWs and Allowance NW1s can sometimes improve dramatically. Even MCLs can change, but often older maiden claimers have already shown what they're capable of running.

Along with the pace graph and a little handicapping based on form cycles you can get a good feel for what a horse is capable of doing. Sometimes, I would plug in two or three different pace lines for a given horse to see how each pace line matched up with the other runners. If there are two pace lines for one horse that are plausible and you can't tell for sure which one to use, then you have to use your handicapping skill and knowledge to try to figure out how it is most likely to run.

It's horseracing. Sometimes you get it right. Sometimes it rains and the track turns to mud.

[Appy]

Interesting thread.
I will only say I went to Craven's Pace and Cap Sartin site on the advice of a friend. I found that to be good advice. I learned a lot of very useful information and consider the material "must read" for anyone wanting to learn some valuable insights. I have no doubt you will find good friends there, just as I did.
That process left me with nothing but good things to say about Ted, despite the fact I moved on to continue my learning process.

[lefty359]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Not true. Ainslie was quite complimentary of Sartin and his work...and even became a pace handicapping convert during the latter stages of his long handicapping career.

That's correct. I was invited to the Sartin Seminars In Vegas for free by Doc himself. Ainslie spoke at one of them, saying he was now using the methodology.

[lefty359]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

IMO...picking a single past performance line as a barometer for judging the ability of a horse is the height of folly.

With Validator, Doc always said put in several pacelines and let the prgm pick the best one.