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Old 06-26-2015, 05:53 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire
I empathize. My biggest complaint is their decisions are too subjective and the allowing of herding. Herding is dangerous to the jocks and the animals.

When Renee Douglas, before his injury, rode at A.P. he used he horses like guided missiles and created many potential dangerous situations.
I still think Iherd ended Ramon's career...

He's nothing but a punk.

Thinks he's a premier jockey when in reality he's a Ramon Wannabe. Iherd thinks the best thing to do is rate every horse down (because it was perceived that Ramon rated every horse down). Kid can't realize that Ramon had awesome hands and was able to make specific decisions for every race individually based upon bias, # of speeds in race, competition, if then scenarios and was a full fledged genius on the track. Ramon broke to the lead and then rated quite often. This kid just chokes all the time regardless of scenario. He quite often herds bad OUT OF THE GATE and obviously does so in the lane every chance he gets.
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Old 06-26-2015, 05:55 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Tor Ekman
I'm with ya. I had the 2 to win, he was full of run until he got cut off, definitely liked his chances to win before he got cut off, and still might've got up to place but for second incident
Repulsive.

Why put the inquiry up and make an insanely stupid decision after verifying that he in fact did impede and totally take the chances away of a surging horse?
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:15 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by EMD4ME
I still think Iherd ended Ramon's career...

He's nothing but a punk.

Thinks he's a premier jockey when in reality he's a Ramon Wannabe. Iherd thinks the best thing to do is rate every horse down (because it was perceived that Ramon rated every horse down). Kid can't realize that Ramon had awesome hands and was able to make specific decisions for every race individually based upon bias, # of speeds in race, competition, if then scenarios and was a full fledged genius on the track. Ramon broke to the lead and then rated quite often. This kid just chokes all the time regardless of scenario. He quite often herds bad OUT OF THE GATE and obviously does so in the lane every chance he gets.
Not to mention that him and his sidekicks all ride in ozone park ny during the cold months instead of riding in so fla. I find that fascinating.
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:45 PM   #214
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Not to mention that him and his sidekicks all ride in ozone park ny during the cold months instead of riding in so fla. I find that fascinating.
I plead the 5th...............................

I will just say this...Those 3 are extremely bad for the game.
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:48 PM   #215
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I plead the 5th...............................

I will just say this...Those 3 are extremely bad for the game.
What, you mean the weather is better in ny than fla during the winter lol

Stay on 5th ave.
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Old 06-26-2015, 08:41 PM   #216
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Incredible. Another big exacta down the drain because of the stewards. R2 at SA. Again favoring the big favorite who is now placed second instead of third (or fourth, they haven't even shown the photo). Another total judgement call by those morons.

How can totally mediocre a-holes steal so easily from people with far greater expertise?

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Old 06-26-2015, 11:47 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Dark Horse
Incredible. Another big exacta down the drain because of the stewards. R2 at SA. Again favoring the big favorite who is now placed second instead of third (or fourth, they haven't even shown the photo). Another total judgement call by those morons.

How can totally mediocre a-holes steal so easily from people with far greater expertise?
I think you might be confused. The 5 who finished 2nd bothered the 4 who finished 3rd. There were no other horses involved. The 5 was dq'ed and placed 3rd. Whoever was the big favorite is irrelevant to the stewards.
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Old 06-27-2015, 12:35 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by v j stauffer
I think you might be confused. The 5 who finished 2nd bothered the 4 who finished 3rd. There were no other horses involved. The 5 was dq'ed and placed 3rd. Whoever was the big favorite is irrelevant to the stewards.
The 6 finished 2nd, and was placed third. At least that was shown on the screen after the photo. (as well as on equibase: http://www.equibase.com/premium/char...15&cy=USA&rn=2) I know because I was disappointed that the better paying 5 hadn't finished second.

Vic, as mentioned many times I respect you greatly you as race caller. But I have lost all respect for stewards. Today was the final drop, after seeing two juicy exactas go down the drain at Belmont and Santa Anita. They're welcome to earn the respect back. How hard could it truly be to have consistent rules consistently applied?! How much work would that truly take? A lot less than the work good handicappers put in, I would be willing to bet.

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Old 06-27-2015, 01:01 AM   #219
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As to favorites, I haven't researched them in this context. My comment was in the context of that of an earlier poster after the Belmont race.

I would admit to be at least somewhat surprised if, over a large sample, it turned out that steward inquiries didn't favor the chalk over longshots. But it's just a guess, at this point. It would actually be a way to measure neutrality. Huh...

Man, I was angry at those three stooges. Steam blown off. Tomorrow is another day. Just remember. Stewards never pay for their mistakes. Bettors pay for their own mistakes, as well as those of the stewards.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:53 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Dark Horse
As to favorites, I haven't researched them in this context. My comment was in the context of that of an earlier poster after the Belmont race.

I would admit to be at least somewhat surprised if, over a large sample, it turned out that steward inquiries didn't favor the chalk over longshots. But it's just a guess, at this point. It would actually be a way to measure neutrality. Huh...

Man, I was angry at those three stooges. Steam blown off. Tomorrow is another day. Just remember. Stewards never pay for their mistakes. Bettors pay for their own mistakes, as well as those of the stewards.
Good points.

To add to Vic's point about the no fave/LS bias in judging I think it's a factor in this way. it's similar to star players in the NBA getting a call that a low rung player may not get. Great players make more baskets than bad players so if a great players arm is grazed and the shot misses by a millimeter, aren't you as the ref thinking 'that shot goes in if there's no graze on the arm because this is a great player who makes a lot of shots'?

It's a factor.

Now, the judges arent going to place up a shorter price specifically because it has more money on it, but isn't it responsible to at least consider that in the long run, the very shortest priced horses almost always hit the board and if an interference takes place preventing that 2-5 from finishing 3rd, isn't this a factor in a situation that is a 'fifty fifty call'?

A great example of what I'm trying to say was at Belmont the other day, the heavy fave got placed from 3rd to 2nd, and if you handicapped that race or knew the horse was a standout according to the odds, would you be neglect in your duties if you didnt factor in the standout nature of the horse and that the bump might have been severe because how else would a horse bet that heavily be out if the money?
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:49 AM   #221
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I'd like to know from Vic if he did think, as I did, that the 5 came in second. If so, then the DQ would only have moved up the favorite to 3rd.
This was just a crazy scenario, of a blanket finish for second as well as a steward inquiry.

As to your point, is there any question that a 10/1 longshot will get less attention from the stewards if he's bumped in the stretch than a 2/1 favorite? Those forgotten longshots, and there are many, wouldn't even enter the research sample of DQ-ed horses.

The arbitrary nature of DQ's is not acceptable, to me, in the modern age. How hard could it be to write a program to mathematically establish speed, power of impact/bump, and so on, with precise calculation of the amount of hindrance and effect on the final result. There is nothing in there that can't be measured scientifically and entered into a program.

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Old 06-27-2015, 03:29 AM   #222
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DH the cost a placing rule is generally this. If there was a zero pct chance the horse was cost a placing its left alone. If theres a ONE percent shot or higher, they can make a dq.

Remember that the Official wording isnt is 'cost a placing' its 'cost the OPPORTUNITY at a better placing'
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:15 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Dark Horse
I'd like to know from Vic if he did think, as I did, that the 5 came in second. If so, then the DQ would only have moved up the favorite to 3rd.
This was just a crazy scenario, of a blanket finish for second as well as a steward inquiry.

As to your point, is there any question that a 10/1 longshot will get less attention from the stewards if he's bumped in the stretch than a 2/1 favorite? Those forgotten longshots, and there are many, wouldn't even enter the research sample of DQ-ed horses.

The arbitrary nature of DQ's is not acceptable, to me, in the modern age. How hard could it be to write a program to mathematically establish speed, power of impact/bump, and so on, with precise calculation of the amount of hindrance and effect on the final result. There is nothing in there that can't be measured scientifically and entered into a program.
# 5 finished 2nd. The heavy favorite #4 finished 3rd. # 5 was disqualified from 2nd and placed 3rd for bumping #4 costing him an opportunity at a better placing.

As for the odds. I can tell you from experience in most cases the stewards have no idea what odds each horse is. They are horses, numbers and jockeys. Nothing else. On the times they are aware of the odds which happens sometimes. 4/5, 5-2, 5-1, 50-1 is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Many will not buy that. I promise you it is true.
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:16 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
DH the cost a placing rule is generally this. If there was a zero pct chance the horse was cost a placing its left alone. If theres a ONE percent shot or higher, they can make a dq.

Remember that the Official wording isnt is 'cost a placing' its 'cost the OPPORTUNITY at a better placing'
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:19 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
Good points.

To add to Vic's point about the no fave/LS bias in judging I think it's a factor in this way. it's similar to star players in the NBA getting a call that a low rung player may not get. Great players make more baskets than bad players so if a great players arm is grazed and the shot misses by a millimeter, aren't you as the ref thinking 'that shot goes in if there's no graze on the arm because this is a great player who makes a lot of shots'?

It's a factor.

Now, the judges arent going to place up a shorter price specifically because it has more money on it, but isn't it responsible to at least consider that in the long run, the very shortest priced horses almost always hit the board and if an interference takes place preventing that 2-5 from finishing 3rd, isn't this a factor in a situation that is a 'fifty fifty call'?

A great example of what I'm trying to say was at Belmont the other day, the heavy fave got placed from 3rd to 2nd, and if you handicapped that race or knew the horse was a standout according to the odds, would you be neglect in your duties if you didnt factor in the standout nature of the horse and that the bump might have been severe because how else would a horse bet that heavily be out if the money?
50/50 doesn't exist. Stewards are paid to make a decision. The public is wrong about heavily bet horses most of the time. It has ZERO to do with film analysis.
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