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Old 12-07-2023, 11:08 PM   #31
dilanesp
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Is it a lawyer thing about being certain about things you know nothing about or it just you?
I just exposed you as being completely ignorant about your own employer's history of running 1 1/2 mile races af Aqueduct. You have no right to insult me after saying something so uninformed.

BTW, every time the BC is held ar Santa Anita we also start a long race on a turn (the F&M turf).

This issue is about NYRA stupidity and sullying the TC, not TLG's entirely contrary to history statemwnt that they can't run 12 furlongs at Aqueduct.
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:45 AM   #32
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What about moving the finish line back an 1/8th and thus moving the Starting Gate back an 1/8th?

I realize this brings a whole other slew of issues with it being a single race where this would be the case, and also likely presents timing issues and a new photo finish and such for a new finish line for a single race, but it is the Belmont Stakes, and 12F is a very large part of what the race is about.
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:02 AM   #33
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It's worth noting that if starting on the turn actually was impossible despite NYRA having done it in this very race for years, they could have made it 1 5/8 miles or 1 11/16 miles rather than cutting it to 1 1/4 and cheapening the TC.

It is no secret there are a lot of people in racing who hate the Belmont being 1 1/2 miles because so few horses are bred to go that distance anymore. NYRA is pandering to them, as happened during the COVID year as well, and there is a significant danger that this could catch on and the Belmont will eventually no longer be a long distance race, as has happened to several other races on NYRA's calendar. This is just shameful conduct by NYRA, harming the sport.
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:49 AM   #34
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Running at Aqueduct with a turn-start at 12f actually would 'cheapen' the Triple Crown.

The only way that Saratoga can possibly do worse than that is if they can't field more than six horses in the interim 10furlong edition(s) of the Belmont Stakes.

Six horses is about the most that can fairly run in a turn start situation. There may still be strong biases (like an inside speed who benefits from a specific short field because of potential lack of pace rivals), but six in the gate is about where the outside horses start to automatically lose lengths.
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Old 12-08-2023, 01:48 PM   #35
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It's worth noting that if starting on the turn actually was impossible despite NYRA having done it in this very race for years, they could have made it 1 5/8 miles or 1 11/16 miles rather than cutting it to 1 1/4 and cheapening the TC.

It is no secret there are a lot of people in racing who hate the Belmont being 1 1/2 miles because so few horses are bred to go that distance anymore. NYRA is pandering to them, as happened during the COVID year as well, and there is a significant danger that this could catch on and the Belmont will eventually no longer be a long distance race, as has happened to several other races on NYRA's calendar. This is just shameful conduct by NYRA, harming the sport.

I think we just have to accept the fact that some connections don't like 12F because many horses can't handle it. There was no way they were or should have made the race even longer. Adding more stamina to the breed (if that's what they want) is a longer term incentive and breeding issue.

The choice was to run 12F on the turn or at 10F instead. Neither choice was perfect. They opted for 10F, probably because that's what horsemen wanted, but maybe TLG knows the exact thinking. It's just a short term thing until Belmont is rebuilt. It's not the end of the world.

The bigger issue is my question.

What if it draws the biggest high quality field in many years, is a spectacular success in handle and attendance, and horsemen want to keep it at 10F. That raises longer term issues about the direction of the sport, stamina, and the Triple Crown.
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Old 12-08-2023, 02:43 PM   #36
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The bigger issue is my question.

What if it draws the biggest high quality field in many years, is a spectacular success in handle and attendance, and horsemen want to keep it at 10F. That raises longer term issues about the direction of the sport, stamina, and the Triple Crown.
That's a great question and important concern.
  • The Belmont Stakes and that day's card are one of Belmont Park's signature events.
  • They just put a lot of money and effort into a renovation deal at Belmont Park.
  • They aren't going to move the Belmont permanently anytime in the near future.
  • When you frame the concept within running this race at Belmont Park, it's just not a big threat to become 10 Furlongs instead of 12 Furlongs.
  • When you run 10 Furlongs at Belmont Park, you have to start on the turn.
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Last edited by Robert Fischer; 12-08-2023 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 12-08-2023, 06:07 PM   #37
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A skating rink will be opening next month on the grounds of Belmont Park.

https://secretnyc.co/the-park-at-ubs-arena/
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Old 12-08-2023, 08:55 PM   #38
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That's a great question and important concern.
  • The Belmont Stakes and that day's card are one of Belmont Park's signature events.
  • They just put a lot of money and effort into a renovation deal at Belmont Park.
  • They aren't going to move the Belmont permanently anytime in the near future.
  • When you frame the concept within running this race at Belmont Park, it's just not a big threat to become 10 Furlongs instead of 12 Furlongs.
  • When you run 10 Furlongs at Belmont Park, you have to start on the turn.
No, I think classhandicapper is absolutely right. You are going to see horsemen and breeders push for this and there's a significant danger that the race may eventually be shortened.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:01 PM   #39
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Running at Aqueduct with a turn-start at 12f actually would 'cheapen' the Triple Crown.

The only way that Saratoga can possibly do worse than that is if they can't field more than six horses in the interim 10furlong edition(s) of the Belmont Stakes.

Six horses is about the most that can fairly run in a turn start situation. There may still be strong biases (like an inside speed who benefits from a specific short field because of potential lack of pace rivals), but six in the gate is about where the outside horses start to automatically lose lengths.
They had 11 horses in the 1966 Belmont, which started on the turn at Aqueduct. Amberoid won from post 5 (he was the best horse in the race, infamously bet by a young Andy Beyer who cut class at Harvard to bet him), but Buffle, who finished second, started in post 10 and according to the DRF chart comments, "saved ground".

This notion that we can't do something that was literally done FIVE TIMES in the 1960's and which did not cause any particular trouble for outside horses (because it's a 12 furlong race with a slow pace and jockeys have no problem getting to the rail if they feel they need to) is silly. This is just a massively bad decision by NYRA.
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:06 PM   #40
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No, I think classhandicapper is absolutely right. You are going to see horsemen and breeders push for this and there's a significant danger that the race may eventually be shortened.
I actually agree with that.

The Belmont has no rational argument to be making a permanent official move away from Belmont Park any time soon.
There is also no rational argument that the Belmont as a Grade 1 Triple Crown race will ever make a permanent official move to be run at ten furlongs at Belmont Park.

However, there is at least some small probability of the Belmont Stakes one day making a planned move to be run at Belmont Park at a distance of One Mile.

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They had 11 horses in the 1966 Belmont, which started on the turn at Aqueduct. Amberoid won from post 5 (he was the best horse in the race, infamously bet by a young Andy Beyer who cut class at Harvard to bet him), but Buffle, who finished second, started in post 10 and according to the DRF chart comments, "saved ground".

This notion that we can't do something that was literally done FIVE TIMES in the 1960's and which did not cause any particular trouble for outside horses (because it's a 12 furlong race with a slow pace and jockeys have no problem getting to the rail if they feel they need to) is silly. This is just a massively bad decision by NYRA.
I think if the last 4 Suburbans were run in the early to mid 1960s they would be fairly likely to have full fields. In 2024 it's a nice surprise if there are more than 5 or 6 horses.

There's nothing that makes it impossible to run a turn-start configuration, it's just a bad idea.

If you believe that running a competitive full field high-handle race or few at 10furlongs up in Saratoga during the renovation somehow 'cheapens' the race, but that running it at a turn-start configuration at Aqueduct would be good for the game, then that's what you believe. You have every right to believe that. Opinions are much of what makes this game good.
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Last edited by Robert Fischer; 12-08-2023 at 11:16 PM.
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