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09-16-2018, 04:45 PM
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#8401
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
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I do not agree that the Christian "god" is in anyway responsible or not responsible for the random nature of the universe. However maybe some unfathomable 'force" does get involved in large global events in human affairs.
Comparing larger cosmic divine design to a human body, we humans do not get involved in the life and death of blood or muscle cells, but notice and attempt to remedy a broken arm.
"God" may not care about details dominated by randomness.
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09-16-2018, 05:34 PM
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#8402
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
I do not agree that the Christian "god" is in anyway responsible or not responsible for the random nature of the universe. However maybe some unfathomable 'force" does get involved in large global events in human affairs.
Comparing larger cosmic divine design to a human body, we humans do not get involved in the life and death of blood or muscle cells, but notice and attempt to remedy a broken arm.
"God" may not care about details dominated by randomness.
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In theism, nothing is random. (Random is is strictly a materialistic view.) The entire universe (not just the natural forces of this world) is sustained by God's power 24/7.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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09-16-2018, 05:44 PM
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#8403
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
In theism, nothing is random. (Random is is strictly a materialistic view.) The entire universe (not just the natural forces of this world) is sustained by God's power 24/7.
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Your theism maybe.
Not in all religions, and I am giving you another perspective which I know you will reject.
Big deal.
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09-16-2018, 05:55 PM
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#8404
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
Your theism maybe.
Not in all religions, and I am giving you another perspective which I know you will reject.
Big deal.
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The bible's theism.
In fact, can a religion be theistic unless God is in sovereign control of his creation and at the "helm" of the entire universe? Seems to me anything less than this would be deism, to which I know you would be more disposed.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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09-16-2018, 06:12 PM
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#8405
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
The bible's theism.
In fact, can a religion be theistic unless God is in sovereign control of his creation and at the "helm" of the entire universe? Seems to me anything less than this would be deism, to which I know you would be more disposed.
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No. That's your literal bible theism.
There are, however, many different types of theists. Monotheists and polytheists are the most well known, but there are a variety of others as well.
Don't forget
Pantheism,
and Deism
Not to mention religions without a Deity in the Jude-Christan mold who might look at the universe in the model of a "totem" pole. American Indians believed in different "scales"and levels of a great underlying common spirit.
Words are not precise means of defining all these beliefs and theories
Last edited by hcap; 09-16-2018 at 06:14 PM.
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09-16-2018, 06:36 PM
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#8406
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Quintessential guru
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
I do not agree that the Christian "god" is in anyway responsible or not responsible for the random nature of the universe. However maybe some unfathomable 'force" does get involved in large global events in human affairs.
Comparing larger cosmic divine design to a human body, we humans do not get involved in the life and death of blood or muscle cells, but notice and attempt to remedy a broken arm.
"God" may not care about details dominated by randomness.
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My post was a clarification of why the Priest's comments should not be understood as an endorsement of a belief system which promotes natural disasters and resulting suffering and/or deaths as " God's justice".
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
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09-16-2018, 06:50 PM
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#8407
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire
My post was a clarification of why the Priest's comments should not be understood as an endorsement of a belief system which promotes natural disasters and resulting suffering and/or deaths as "God's justice".
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Yeah I got that, but thought I would provide a different perceptive. My main objection is looking for god's "justice" in random events as boxcar does. I still feel minor details of human affairs are not a concern for the divine. Unless we somehow act on behalf of the divine.
Acting in a divine way may be spotted despite our minor importance in the grand scheme
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09-16-2018, 07:38 PM
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#8408
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
No. That's your literal bible theism.
There are, however, many different types of theists. Monotheists and polytheists are the most well known, but there are a variety of others as well.
Don't forget
Pantheism,
and Deism
Not to mention religions without a Deity in the Jude-Christan mold who might look at the universe in the model of a "totem" pole. American Indians believed in different "scales"and levels of a great underlying common spirit.
Words are not precise means of defining all these beliefs and theories
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There are only three (3) monotheistic religions in the world: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And all three of these believe God interacts with his creation. And all three believe God is a personal, moral and rational being.
Polytheism and Ditheism don't count. Very few adherents in today's modern world. Third world jungles or rain forests maybe...but that's about it.
In your world, words are never sufficient to describe God or religions to which you don't subscribe. Words are only sufficient for you when you use them to teach us religious, allegorical gibberish, psycho-babble.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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09-16-2018, 07:49 PM
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#8409
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire
My post was a clarification of why the Priest's comments should not be understood as an endorsement of a belief system which promotes natural disasters and resulting suffering and/or deaths as "God's justice".
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Seriously? You need to get up to speed on scripture.
While the Bible states that some famines and droughts are the judgment of God (2 Samuel 21:1 ; 1 Kings 17:1 ; 2 Kings 8:1 ; Jeremiah 14:12 ; Ezekiel 5:12 ; Amos 4:6 ), not all such disasters are connected to divine punishment (Genesis 12:10 ; Genesis 26:1 ; Ruth 1:1 ; Acts 11:28 ). When God did send drought and famine on His people, it was for the purpose of bringing them to repentance (1 Kings 8:35-36 ; Hosea 2:8-23 ; Amos 4:6-8 ). Moreover, the Old Testament contains promises that God will protect His faithful ones in times of famine (Job 5:20 ,Job 5:20,5:22 ; Psalm 33:18-19 ; Psalm 37:18-19 ; Proverbs 10:3 ).
https://www.studylight.org/dictionar...d-drought.html
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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09-16-2018, 11:43 PM
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#8410
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
In fact, can a religion be theistic unless God is in sovereign control of his creation and at the "helm" of the entire universe?
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Dude. God is the entire universe, not just some captain at the "helm". When you look at God as "there" and creation as "here" you separate yourself from God and know not what you speak. The wise, know God is you and you are God in love as one, because this is all a miracle that cannot be understood, only experienced.
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09-17-2018, 04:03 AM
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#8411
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Very rarely and only when a specific situation logically screams for it. Neither of Thask's examples do.
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Fallacy of Special Pleading!
__________________
Sapere aude
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09-17-2018, 08:37 AM
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#8412
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
There are only three (3) monotheistic religions in the world: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And all three of these believe God interacts with his creation. And all three believe God is a personal, moral and rational being.
Polytheism and Ditheism don't count. Very few adherents in today's modern world. Third world jungles or rain forests maybe...but that's about it.
In your world, words are never sufficient to describe God or religions to which you don't subscribe. Words are only sufficient for you when you use them to teach us religious, allegorical gibberish, psycho-babble.
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You continue to think literal minded biblical Christianity is the measure of all religions and the only way to understand the divine and the universe. The word "theism" is very limiting.
Your literal minded "biblical" theism, even more limiting
You hide behind words.
I got news for you, metaphor and allegory point to concepts moslty non verbal and grander than the words alone.
Words may be used skillfully to paint much more colorful and transcendent "images" than just your literal "god vs the devil", "black vs white" babble
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09-17-2018, 09:13 AM
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#8413
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Dude. God is the entire universe, not just some captain at the "helm". When you look at God as "there" and creation as "here" you separate yourself from God and know not what you speak. The wise, know God is you and you are God in love as one, because this is all a miracle that cannot be understood, only experienced.
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Pantheism is not taught in scripture.
God transcends all that he created, which includes the universe.
If God is the universe and the universe is God, then God would have had to create himself which would be a self-contradictory belief sytem, and very obviously a violation of the Law of Noncontradiction.
But thanks for speaking about things, which by your own admission, you cannot understand either. 
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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09-17-2018, 09:43 AM
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#8414
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Pantheism is not taught in scripture.
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Can something still exist, even if scripture makes no mention of it? Or is scripture the "be-all", and "end-all"?
__________________
"Theory is knowledge that doesn't work. Practice is when everything works and you don't know why."
-- Hermann Hesse
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09-17-2018, 10:19 AM
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#8415
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
Because saying stuff about “Jews” and “israel” is non-sensical in nature...Those concepts involve blanket statements about impossible subjects...what is a Jew..? What is israel...? Abstract concepts...it is like someone saying something about “ an American” or the USA...it is totally non-sensical...besides I have no problems or issue with ANYBODY...any person for that matter.....
...now what a State does or does not do is a different matter...and there are many things that many States do, that are controversial and worth discussing, including our own, and I frequently do...
But I do find the history and culture of the Jews fascinating to study and because of their central role in history and dominance in our political culture, one can hardly avoid not discussing their role in it...
So I talk about Jews and Israelis a lot...so what. Boxcar talks about Christians a lot and you don’t bother him...I wish more people here WOULD talk more about them and their role in history and contemporary events...As far as I can tell, i’m the only one here on PA that ever brings them up except for Boxcar when he talks about some verse in the Old Testament...
They are interesting people, don’t you think...?
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Stop beating around the bush and just come out with it already...I want to hear what you really think about these "interesting people."
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