Bring Hong Kong handicap racing model to U.S.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Nitro

How do you come up with this sort of nonsense?! First of all while Hong Kong has a 17.5% take-out in the mutual pools and 25% across the exotics, only those with winning bets need to concern themselves with the take-out. Even then, those smart enough can usually rationalize the value of their potential wagers by simply using the odds of their selected entries as a barometer for making a successful play. Why? Simply because the odds displayed already account for the take-out removal.

Aside from all of that, the HK racing program is becoming more and more lucrative each year and going in the exact opposite direction of most Stateside horse racing programs (which by the way have attempted to lure the betting public by lowering the take-out in some cases). These sort of “band-aids “ are not going to solve the major underlying issues causing the deterioration of the Stateside game.

Actually it’s very easy to comprehend the obvious current lack of interest in many circles of the general public as related to the horse racing game here in the States. 40 or 50 years ago our hometown culture was very much like that in HK. However, there’s a explanation as to how that’s all changed. You simply have to examine what the Stateside horse racing jurisdictions have (and have not) done since then to jeopardize its very existence by making decisions that ignore the very foundation of this game: The bettor!

My post was in reply to rastajenk's post #7...in which he suggests that the HK fields might also eventually be reduced to 5-6 horses...as they've done here in the States. And my contention is that, if indeed the fields in HK are reduced to 5-6 horses...then the takeouts better get reduced too...because such short fields cannot support takeouts in the 17.5% - 25% range, and still retain the bettor enthusiasm that the HK product enjoys now. You might disagree with me on this...but that doesn't make you right.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by highnote

I thought he was being facetious. Although, I can never tell with thas. He has a great sense of humor.

I tried to give you rep points for this astute comment...but the site wouldn't allow me.

[iamt]

For a market that is so thriving how does it fit all that local turnover in HK fell 1% last year?

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

My post was in reply to rastajenk's post #7...in which he suggests that the HK fields might also eventually be reduced to 5-6 horses...as they've done here in the States. And my contention is that, if indeed the fields in HK are reduced to 5-6 horses...then the takeouts better get reduced too...because such short fields cannot support takeouts in the 17.5% - 25% range, and still retain the bettor enthusiasm that the HK product enjoys now. You might disagree with me on this...but that doesn't make you right.

Hit a 50c Tri today at Aqueduct.

Had the favorite /over the 4th-longest-shot /over the longest-shot-on-the-board

Paid $11.05 in a $51,756 pool...

Why did it pay so low?

1. The favorite was an obvious, heavy favorite.
2. AND this was a 6-horse field...

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Hit a 50c Tri today at Aqueduct.

Had the favorite /over the 4th-longest-shot /over the longest-shot-on-the-board

Paid $11.05 in a $51,756 pool...

Why did it pay so low?

1. The favorite was an obvious, heavy favorite.
2. AND this was a 6-horse field...

Ask TVG's Peter Lurie...and he'll tell you that, if you bet the cold trifecta for $20...you'd make some decent bucks.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Ask TVG's Peter Lurie...and he'll tell you that, if you bet the cold trifecta for $20...you'd make some decent bucks.

yea, thx ...

I think I'll just drop an f-bomb, and remember to pass over short fields, -even if I have a secondary opinion underneath

[rastajenk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

My post was in reply to rastajenk's post #7...in which he suggests that the HK fields might also eventually be reduced to 5-6 horses...

I suggested no such thing. I suggested it would probably happen in the proposed American experiment with the Hong Kong model, because American owners have no experience in sending their horses to concentration camps, and probably won't like it for very long.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

I suggested no such thing. I suggested it would probably happen in the proposed American experiment with the Hong Kong model, because American owners have no experience in sending their horses to concentration camps, and probably won't like it for very long.

Oh, I'm sorry...I clearly misunderstood the point that you were trying to make. When you mentioned the 5 and 6-horse fields...I thought that you were talking about such a lamentable occurence possibly taking place in HK. I had the impression that you had realized that the 5 and 6-horse fields have already been instituted in our country...they are not waiting for us to conduct any "Hong Kong model experiments".

[highnote]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

American owners have no experience in sending their horses to concentration camps

The silliest thing I have read on PA this week.

[steveb]

Originally Posted by Nitro

How do you come up with this sort of nonsense?! First of all while Hong Kong has a 17.5% take-out in the mutual pools and 25% across the exotics, only those with winning bets need to concern themselves with the take-out. Even then, those smart enough can usually rationalize the value of their potential wagers by simply using the odds of their selected entries as a barometer for making a successful play. Why? Simply because the odds displayed already account for the take-out removal.

Aside from all of that, the HK racing program is becoming more and more lucrative each year and going in the exact opposite direction of most Stateside horse racing programs (which by the way have attempted to lure the betting public by lowering the take-out in some cases). These sort of “band-aids “ are not going to solve the major underlying issues causing the deterioration of the Stateside game.

Actually it’s very easy to comprehend the obvious current lack of interest in many circles of the general public as related to the horse racing game here in the States. 40 or 50 years ago our hometown culture was very much like that in HK. However, there’s a explanation as to how that’s all changed. You simply have to examine what the Stateside horse racing jurisdictions have (and have not) done since then to jeopardize its very existence by making decisions that ignore the very foundation of this game: The bettor!

the hk bettors can get good rebates, that would lessen the over rounds for them.
but if you are outside hk, and betting into their pools via comingling then are you disadvantaged because u don't get those rebates?
or do you?


your rationale of....."Simply because the odds displayed already account for the take-out removal.", overlooks the fact that the less rake then the bigger the dividend.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I tried to give you rep points for this astute comment...but the site wouldn't allow me.

Thanks for trying. Maybe you can give me some meow meow beenz instead?

YouTube

[highnote]

Originally Posted by steveb

the hk bettors can get good rebates, that would lessen the over rounds for them.
but if you are outside hk, and betting into their pools via comingling then are you disadvantaged because u don't get those rebates?
or do you?


your rationale of....."Simply because the odds displayed already account for the take-out removal.", overlooks the fact that the less rake then the bigger the dividend.

North American bettors can get rebates from their online wagering company.

[mikekk]

Originally Posted by Nitro

How do you come up with this sort of nonsense?! First of all while Hong Kong has a 17.5% take-out in the mutual pools and 25% across the exotics, only those with winning bets need to concern themselves with the take-out. Even then, those smart enough can usually rationalize the value of their potential wagers by simply using the odds of their selected entries as a barometer for making a successful play. Why? Simply because the odds displayed already account for the take-out removal.

Aside from all of that, the HK racing program is becoming more and more lucrative each year and going in the exact opposite direction of most Stateside horse racing programs (which by the way have attempted to lure the betting public by lowering the take-out in some cases). These sort of “band-aids “ are not going to solve the major underlying issues causing the deterioration of the Stateside game.

Actually it’s very easy to comprehend the obvious current lack of interest in many circles of the general public as related to the horse racing game here in the States. 40 or 50 years ago our hometown culture was very much like that in HK. However, there’s a explanation as to how that’s all changed. You simply have to examine what the Stateside horse racing jurisdictions have (and have not) done since then to jeopardize its very existence by making decisions that ignore the very foundation of this game: The bettor!

I don't often agree with Nitro's posts, but he's making a real good point here.

Two stories:

1. Back in the late 90's, my late friend Gord, and another friend Chris, decided that HK racing was as good as it gets. They made plans to visit Hong Kong, strictly to see the racing live. After working out flights and booking hotel rooms, they emailed the HK Jockey Club and let them know of their plans. HKJC quickly replied, and asked for a copy of their itinerary. Gord and Chris sent it to them. When they arrived, there was a chauffeur waiting for them, took them to their hotel and told them he'd be back the next day to take them to Sha Tin. At the track, they were treated like visiting royalty, HKJC had provided them with a special box near the finish line; they were given the use of an interpreter, who answered their questions, ran their bets thru for them, got them food and drink. After one of the races an HKJC official came down to their box and told them that they were going to be asked to decorate the winner of the next race! After the last race, they were driven back to their hotel. This continued through their stay. The last day, after the racing ended, they were driven back to the airport. A first class experience!

2. In the early 2000's, I worked for a large company in Vancouver that had an Employee's Group responsible for group activities (team building thing). They decided that a trip to the racetrack would be a fun experience, and asked me to coordinate the event from the racetrack side. I called Hastings Park to see if they had any group perks available for this kind of thing. They asked how many were going to be coming; about 20-25 I said. Sorry, smallest perk package they had was for minimum 50 people. Okay. We went, bought our admissions and programs and some forms; found a bunch of seating that was together, and had a fairly decent time. There was maybe 500? 750? people scattered throughout the grandstand, so we were @ 10% of attendance actually there for the Hastings card. A fairly normal experience! Other than myself, I doubt if any of the other attendees ever came back to Hastings.

My friend Gord was a retiree, with maybe a $1000 betting bankroll; Chris was still working, at a solid middle-class job. Both bet $20's if they had a strong opinion. Hong Kong wanted their business, and made every effort to make them feel welcome, and needed. My Employee's Group friends were made to feel like cannon fodder.

I wonder why North American racing is dying .

Mike

[highnote]

Originally Posted by mikekk

I don't often agree with Nitro's posts, but he's making a real good point here.

Two stories:

1. Back in the late 90's, my late friend Gord, and another friend Chris, decided that HK racing was as good as it gets. They made plans to visit Hong Kong, strictly to see the racing live. After working out flights and booking hotel rooms, they emailed the HK Jockey Club and let them know of their plans. HKJC quickly replied, and asked for a copy of their itinerary. Gord and Chris sent it to them. When they arrived, there was a chauffeur waiting for them, took them to their hotel and told them he'd be back the next day to take them to Sha Tin. At the track, they were treated like visiting royalty, HKJC had provided them with a special box near the finish line; they were given the use of an interpreter, who answered their questions, ran their bets thru for them, got them food and drink. After one of the races an HKJC official came down to their box and told them that they were going to be asked to decorate the winner of the next race! After the last race, they were driven back to their hotel. This continued through their stay. The last day, after the racing ended, they were driven back to the airport. A first class experience!

2. In the early 2000's, I worked for a large company in Vancouver that had an Employee's Group responsible for group activities (team building thing). They decided that a trip to the racetrack would be a fun experience, and asked me to coordinate the event from the racetrack side. I called Hastings Park to see if they had any group perks available for this kind of thing. They asked how many were going to be coming; about 20-25 I said. Sorry, smallest perk package they had was for minimum 50 people. Okay. We went, bought our admissions and programs and some forms; found a bunch of seating that was together, and had a fairly decent time. There was maybe 500? 750? people scattered throughout the grandstand, so we were @ 10% of attendance actually there for the Hastings card. A fairly normal experience! Other than myself, I doubt if any of the other attendees ever came back to Hastings.

My friend Gord was a retiree, with maybe a $1000 betting bankroll; Chris was still working, at a solid middle-class job. Both bet $20's if they had a strong opinion. Hong Kong wanted their business, and made every effort to make them feel welcome, and needed. My Employee's Group friends were made to feel like cannon fodder.

I wonder why North American racing is dying .

Mike

Great story! I used to go to the NYRA tracks every Saturday and most Sundays with a friend back in the 1990s. We only missed one weekend the entire year and that was at Saratoga. I really liked the racing at Belmont, but the experience of being on-track got dramatically worse over the course of the year. I told my friend more than once that part of the problem was we never saw a track executive walking through the crowds. We mainly stayed on the clubhouse side, but even there we never saw executives. We could see the racing declining and wondered if they could?

[ultracapper]

Seems to me the OP's model in post #1 would have the same horses running against each other every time. The model would need a larger participating population so that Class 1 races don't have the same 14 horse field every time they race.

Seemed that way to me anyhow.