Turning Poker Players Into Horseplayers

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Originally Posted by badcompany

IMO, television paints a phony picture of poker. Namely, it makes it seem as though everyone who has a winning year or two is a pro. In reality, 90+% of poker players lose, and most of the guys who go out to Vegas to be pros end up coming home broke. In addition, you'll hear the announcers talk about how many tournament cashes a player has, but that doesn't tell you whether a player is a winner or not. If a horseplayer cashed 100K in winning tickets in 2009, did he have a winning year? Maybe, maybe not.

We do know there are professional poker players who make a living thanks to poker proceeds. We have no such icons when it comes to horse racing, and takeout is to blame.

[badcompany]

Originally Posted by Horseplayersbet.com

We do know there are professional poker players who make a living thanks to poker proceeds. We have no such icons when it comes to horse racing, and takeout is to blame.

True, but it's a different argument.

There was a recent episode of "Poker After Dark" in which Phil Ivey, a top pro, was doing badly at the poker table, so, he went to the crap table to "clear his head." Not too many professional craps icons, either.

Also, during the games, these guys are making prop bets on all sorts of silly things. As I said, they're degenerates, worse than horseplayers. They'll bet on anything.

[Maverick58034]

I think it sounds like a good idea, but probably just won't work. Trying to push something already trendy with something not trendy - it doesn't work by association. It doesn't seem like it solves the underlying problem.

I think it's a better idea to get a buzz around horseracing - namely, to make the game look "cool" and "beatable." I think the image is old, tired, boring, and more of a faux pas. I'd bet the image of poker in the late 20th century was fairly similar. I was in my late teens when the poker craze started, and within a month everyone was playing poker. Not sure if such a craze could be created from horseracing, but anything is possible.

Horseracing just needs a better publicist and a new image.

[JBmadera]

Originally Posted by Maverick58034

I think it sounds like a good idea, but probably just won't work. Trying to push something already trendy with something not trendy - it doesn't work by association. It doesn't seem like it solves the underlying problem.

I think it's a better idea to get a buzz around horseracing - namely, to make the game look "cool" and "beatable." I think the image is old, tired, boring, and more of a faux pas. I'd bet the image of poker in the late 20th century was fairly similar. I was in my late teens when the poker craze started, and within a month everyone was playing poker. Not sure if such a craze could be created from horseracing, but anything is possible.

Horseracing just needs a better publicist and a new image.

I think the aforementioned is the key - ever since Chris $maker hit the big one folks view poker as "beatable", horse racing on the other hand seems to be viewed as an insiders game, where the average joe has no shot. figuring out how to make the game more appealing is the real issue - the fight for discretionary spending has never been tougher and the "old guard" in racing is really making it tough.

jb

[Bruddah]

Originally Posted by jballscalls

having worked in both poker rooms and horse tracks, i can tell you there is certainly some cross over. there was always guys sitting in the 4/8 games with racing forms in their hand, but they are always 40 or 50+ years old. Guys who got into the sport young and went to the track with their old man.

People will never become interested in the sport from OTB's or betting online. just isn't going to happen. i've always said, the only way to CREATE new players is to get them to the races, and get them there when they are young.

i'd say atleast 80% of the people i talk to at the track, otb's or on these boards who are regular horse players, got into the game by going to the track with their dads, or relatives or got into it when they were young.

I have repeatedly posted on this site that in order to save horse racing, we needed to devise ways to put "butts in the bleachers". In other words get new players to the track. As far as old players and young players, one would have to be blind not recognizing that the poker popularity of today is laced with young players looking to expand their gaming experience.

Poker by itself won't save horse racing alone. However, it is just one tool to put "butts in the bleachers".

[badcompany]

Originally Posted by JBmadera

I think the aforementioned is the key - ever since Chris $maker hit the big one folks view poker as "beatable", horse racing on the other hand seems to be viewed as an insiders game, where the average joe has no shot. figuring out how to make the game more appealing is the real issue - the fight for discretionary spending has never been tougher and the "old guard" in racing is really making it tough.

jb

I recently went to the Yonkers "racino" for the first time. The simulcast rooms there were poorly lit, and the televisions were too small for the distance of the seating. Overall, it was pretty depressing. In addition, it was hard to actually find the track through the casino. So, I don't think slots are the answer.

[how cliche]

I played poker for a few years because it gets lonely at the track for a young man. My friends all play poker. None of them play the races. When you're in your twenties you can't put a price tag on the comraderie of people your own age.

The question becomes how do you get late teens and early twenties gamblers to play? There's a subtext in the poker world that's largely affiliated with hip hop culture. It's one of the least appealing elements of poker to my point of view, but it's widespread and apprealing to young adults in their desperate search for their ever elusive sense of cool.

Somehow racing has to get hip hop in the mix. Jmho.

[ronsmac]

Won't happen.

[upset]

Turfway Park has it figured out. I stopped there on a Friday night in September it was a great atmosfere. People of all different ages hanging out drinking $1 drafts laughing smiling happy. Made me want to move to Cinci

[Sekrah]

Originally Posted by newtothegame

Sorry there bad but I have to disagree with this one. Poker players (pros) make a living at their sport just like any other pro. Now the average GAMBLER who plays poker once in a while I can agree with. but then again, the same can be said for MOST people who frequent the track. From what I have seen here...and at the FG, most horse players are gambling and losing.

Phil Ivey is perhaps the best poker players in the world. He's always one of the biggest degenerate gamblers in the world, well known for winning millions and losing even more millions playing high stakes craps. I believe he bets horses as well.

Phil Hellmuth loves horse racing and will be at Churchill on May 1st.


I personally think the guy is correct and that this will increase horse players. The type of people who play poker (winners and losers), play it because they think they are smartest guy in the room. The figuring and information gathering in horse racing is very similar.

[Tread]

Tremendous parallels here

Most good poker players are good at both math and noticing patterns and are interested in playing hands (or races) where the impled odds of something happening seem to offer value based on the current actual odds the pot (or pool) is paying.

Poker and horse racing are both games of skill with some factor of luck involved. In the short run, anything can happen. In the long run, better players usually win more.

Poker and horse racing are both paramutuel with a rake, unlike casino games that have a fixed house advantage and every player is always at a disadvantage.

The largest issue here is, it is much harder to get good at handicapping races than it is poker, there are many more factors in play and many more theories to sort thru (many of them incorrect). The span of poker knowledge is much more finite.

[Robert Goren]

This falls into the "I believe it, when I see it" category. JMO

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by Tread

Tremendous parallels here

Most good poker players are good at both math and noticing patterns and are interested in playing hands (or races) where the impled odds of something happening seem to offer value based on the current actual odds the pot (or pool) is paying.

Poker and horse racing are both games of skill with some factor of luck involved. In the short run, anything can happen. In the long run, better players usually win more.

Poker and horse racing are both paramutuel with a rake, unlike casino games that have a fixed house advantage and every player is always at a disadvantage.

The largest issue here is, it is much harder to get good at handicapping races than it is poker, there are many more factors in play and many more theories to sort thru (many of them incorrect). The span of poker knowledge is much more finite.

I could not disagree more. They are different skill set entirely. Poker is a hustler's game. If you go for the math in poker, you will go broke very quickly. Poker is not about your hand beating the other guy's, but is about convincing the other guy he has you beat when he don't. JMO

[Tread]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

I could not disagree more. They are different skill set entirely. Poker is a hustler's game. If you go for the math in poker, you will go broke very quickly. Poker is not about your hand beating the other guy's, but is about convincing the other guy he has you beat when he don't. JMO

I did not say poker was only about math, I said it was about both math and the ability to read patterns, i.e. people and their tendencies. Most of the better poker players have skills in both areas. As do handicappers. Handicappers that are dogmatic about performance figures and pace can miss many "read between the lines" items that might keep them from being profitable.

Value, be it in a race or a poker hand, can be based on many things, not all of them necessarily mathematical. But at the end of the day, both of these games are about recognizing value and being able to capitalize on it.

[startngate]

TwinSpires appears to at least be trying to find the crossover. I know they sponsored one (ore more) players in the WSOP last year and are sponsoring the Derby Poker Championship on Thursday.

For any crossover to really take off, they need to get the recognized poker pros to openly talk about playing the horses and how it requires similar skills to poker for them. A nice interview where one of them said something along the lines of them using handicapping to keep their minds sharp when they want to take a break from playing cards would carry a lot of weight.

Actually, in general it seems these days that to make anything take off as being trendy you need to get celebrities, athletes and famous wanna-be's to endorse the activity. They do a little celebrity interviewing on the Derby broadcast, but other than that, unless one happens to own a horse, there just isn't that much coverage of celebs participating in our sport. Racing needs to figure out how to make that happen on a more regular basis. It pretty much failed after Seabiscuit when there was a great opportunity of heightened awareness.