Religious

[Show Me the Wire]

A student asked a desert father what should a Christian do to become holy? The holy man told the young student, pray, fast and give alms. Prayer, meditation and fasting are important elements in resisting temptation (spiritual battle) and alms giving (not giving to a Church) is important to practicing mercy. For it is written God desires mercy more than sacrifice.

Am I keeping it simple enough?

[Show Me the Wire]

Where is it written in the Gospels that Jesus was to be placed upon a golden throne and prayed to...instead of being listened to and followed? Didn't he continually beckon people to "follow" him?

Pray in Jesus' name asking him, John 14:13-14; John 15:16. I am not familiar with the golden throne concept, but Jesus sits on the seat of mercy.

We, Catholics, pray asking for mercy, forgiveness for sinning, for the healing of my soul injured by the darkness of sin, for the Graces to resist temptation and for the Grace of final perseverance as to not sin anymore and that I receive worthily His body and blood so the Eucharist will nourish me bringing me to everlasting life and not condemn me.

Yes, Jesus told his apostles to do things not to read and study Scripture or to write Scripture. That is exactly what the apostles did. They did not lock themselves up in a room to read and study Scripture or to write Scripture.

While they were locked up in the room waiting for the Holy Spirit waiting, they prayed. Once the Holy Spirit descended upon them they did acts. They preached the Gospel, baptized, made converts, healed people and celebrated the Eucharist. Also, Jesus said to his followers not to read, study or write Scripture, but to do by following him in taking up their own cross and obeying Jesus' commands.

When we talk about doing, this is where it gets into the esoteric.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

I am not writing any books, so let us cast aside that worry

When you say Church doctrine I take it to mean Roman Catholic dogma, since I adhere to this Church's interpretations. As you know there are many different sects with varying interpretations, based on their individual understanding of Scripture.

I am not familiar with Church doctrine that teaches it is unnecessary to love our enemies, to not refrain from resisting evil, to not refrain from judging others, or not to become like little children in trusting Our Father, or knowing what is good for us.

I am familiar with some other sects, which subscribe to some or all of those above-mentioned precepts.

Personally, I take Jesus teachings to heart. I try not to judge other people for I am not God and I do not know what is in their hearts or their circumstances and not having the ability to know their hearts no judgment by me would be righteous.

I try to love to the best of my ability, understanding everyone is my brother (sister) in the human condition and the Christ is the light of every human being. Love as I understand it to be is a sacrificial love, not unconditional. There is a difference. I try to forgive anyone that I perceived has offended me, so that anger will not fester.

Temptation is to be resisted. And I try my best to trust God even when I may perceive something bad or evil happened to me, understanding that what I may perceive as an evil may turn out to really be a great blessing in disguise.

I try to recognize God's will is to be done and not mine. After all Jesus asked His Father if the Cup of Sorrow could be taken away and His Father refused, to which my Lord Jesus replied thy will be done Father, not mine. I understand God gave man the gift of free will, which God does not infringe upon and I try not to impose my will on others trying to become mature as the Father is mature.

Notice, I say I try. Sometimes I fail and try to do better next time by asking God for His Graces to strengthen me. This is how I try to live my life.

When I say that Church doctrine has relegated Jesus's teachings as "unnecessary", I mean that these "rules" are not considered a prerequisite for gaining the "Heavenly Life" that Jesus was speaking of. Yes...the Church acknowledges that we should "love our enemies"...but this same Church is out there blessing the weapons of the army, as the army goes out to fight a war on foreign soil. Yes...theoretically, the church considers it a good idea not to judge other people...and yet, this same church has already "judged" the other world religions...and has found them all "heretical" and heathenistic. The Church says one thing...but does the other.

I am not questioning your own personal religious beliefs or practices, SMTW. A man need not explain to anyone what he believes in...and why he does it. I am talking about the position of the Christian Church...and not only the Roman Catholic one. The Greek Orthodox one operates in the same way. It's the CHURCHES that I rail against...not the teachings of Jesus, or the Christian believers.

Yes...the "good Christian" TRIES to follow the precepts of Jesus...but is the eternal life gained by "trying"...or by SUCCEEDING in doing something? Did Jesus tell us to TRY to love our enemies...or did he tell us to actually DO it? What happens if we try, but we ultimately FAIL...to abide by Jesus's rules of conduct?

I want you to know that I am not an atheist...and that I have seen for myself certain things in my own life which cannot be explained by my "rational mind". It's because of these brief glimpses into the mystical world that I have embarked on the seeker's journey...and I aim to remain a seeker for all my life. I am a voracious reader...and have studied all the major world religions...the Eastern religions especially.

Jesus the Christ is an enigmatic figure to me...because his teaching survives only in fragments. Because it's fragmented and incomplete, it does not flow as naturally as the teaching of the Buddha, or Plato, or Plato's reports of the Socratic dialogues. Not only does it not flow naturally...but it is also prone to confusion and misunderstanding.

For instance:

"Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect"...Jesus tells us. It's an obviously unrealistic expectation...but, at least we think that we know what he means.

But we look a little further and find: "Why do you call me good? No one is good -- except God alone."

So, what do we make of all this? Not even Jesus qualifies to be called "good"...but we mere mortals are expected to be as perfect as God in heaven?

These inconsistencies create confusion in the minds of the readers...and arguments among the "believers".

This post is long enough. I'll continue in another post, a little later.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Pray in Jesus' name asking him, John 14:13-14; John 15:16. I am not familiar with the golden throne concept, but Jesus sits on the seat of mercy.

We, Catholics, pray asking for mercy, forgiveness for sinning, for the healing of my soul injured by the darkness of sin, for the Graces to resist temptation and for the Grace of final perseverance as to not sin anymore and that I receive worthily His body and blood so the Eucharist will nourish me bringing me to everlasting life and not condemn me.

Yes, Jesus told his apostles to do things not to read and study Scripture or to write Scripture. That is exactly what the apostles did. They did not lock themselves up in a room to read and study Scripture or to write Scripture.

While they were locked up in the room waiting for the Holy Spirit waiting, they prayed. Once the Holy Spirit descended upon them they did acts. They preached the Gospel, baptized, made converts, healed people and celebrated the Eucharist. Also, Jesus said to his followers not to read, study or write Scripture, but to do by following him in taking up their own cross and obeying Jesus' commands.

When we talk about doing, this is where it gets into the esoteric.

Was Jesus's intention to become a figure to be WORSHIPED...or did he simply want people to FOLLOW him...by imitating his way of life? If the most important thing for the Christian to do is to love Jesus with all his heart, and have absolute faith in him as a "savior"...then, why did Jesus even bother with passing out conduct rules to those whom he preached to? If Boxcar is right, and Jesus -- through his crucifixion -- has indeed washed out the sins of all of God's "chosen people", thus insuring their reservation to the "Heavenly Kingdom"...then why bother with teachings about "loving our enemies", or "being like little kids"?

[Show Me the Wire]

Which Christian can stand up and truthfully assert that he is Jesus's "follower" today?

In fairness I answered the above question. To answer honestly I had to tell you my personal life.

Yes...the "good Christian" TRIES to follow the precepts of Jesus...but is the eternal life gained by "trying"...or by SUCCEEDING in doing something? Did Jesus tell us to TRY to love our enemies...or did he tell us to actually DO it? What happens if we try, but we ultimately FAIL...to abide by Jesus's rules of conduct?

I want you to know that I am not an atheist...and that I have seen for myself certain things in my own life which cannot be explained by my "rational mind". It's because of these brief glimpses into the mystical world that I have embarked on the seeker's journey...and I aim to remain a seeker for all my life. I am a voracious reader...and have studied all the major world religions...the Eastern religions especially.

I know you are not an atheist. I certainly believe you have had glimpses of the mystical world. I certainly have. I too, if you recall investigated the non-Christian Eastern religions and philosophies and even Egyptian mysticism. It was my mystical experiences which led me back to Christianity and then back to Catholicism.

The Roman Church calls itself Catholic, because Catholic means universal. The Church does recognize other religions as having some truths. In fact Christianity initially spread by agreeing with the common truths of the other religions. The Christians would tell the people you are ready believe in so and so and so do we but we proclaim the Good News of Jesus. What the Good News is there is a God and God cares about you and loves you, as Jesus is the physical embodiment of God's love for humanity.

Yes, once the world became basically Christian and after the fall of Rome the dark ages descended upon society and the Church. The Church certainly tried to keep people in line with violence and threats and saw people falling away from Christianity as apostates, a terrible thing to be. The mind set of men at that time was quite different. They believed by killing these people they would be saving their eternal souls from eternal torment. Not a stellar time for the Church. However, that era is very complicated by politics and many other secular issues, which are far to complex for our purposes to delve into.

The Church in modern times has been pushing for ecumenical councils and agreements with other Christian sects and other religions. Our resident theologian even made fun of the Pope for praying with the Dali Lama ( if I recall correctly). The modern Church does not teach in its dogma, for an example, that a Buddhist will automatically be damned.

Turning to the issue of failing to live up to Christ's teachings, this is what I believe and the Church teaches. We will be spared from damnation through the boundless mercy of God, if we sincerely try to live according to Christ's teachings and our final purification, if we fail on earth, will be in the afterlife so we can be made perfect, in order, to be united with God. The only people who will be condemned will be people who refuse, by their own will God's offer. God will tell them your will be done not mine (paraphrasing C.S. Lewis).

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Was Jesus's intention to become a figure to be WORSHIPED...or did he simply want people to FOLLOW him...by imitating his way of life? If the most important thing for the Christian to do is to love Jesus with all his heart, and have absolute faith in him as a "savior"...then, why did Jesus even bother with passing out conduct rules to those whom he preached to? If Boxcar is right, and Jesus -- through his crucifixion -- has indeed washed out the sins of all of God's "chosen people", thus insuring their reservation to the "Heavenly Kingdom"...then why bother with teachings about "loving our enemies", or "being like little kids"?

Well the Apostles and the Gospels teach Jesus is God, Divinity. As the Apostle Thomas who doubted the Resurrection proclaimed to Jesus when Jesus appeared to him offering Thomas to put his fingers in Jesus' wounds "my Lord and my God". As God He is entitled to worship.

Jesus, God, became man so man can become God. Man has to follow Jesus' teachings to seize this opportunity to transcend. As you know I am highly skeptical boxcar is right, for Jesus died for the sins of the world, not for "world" being defined as particular people. If boxcar was right there is no purpose for Jesus' teachings. However, Jesus taught for a purpose and not for naught.

Remember, Jesus taught that all who want to be loved by the Father have to do. Jesus' teaching is all about acts. Jesus never ever wrote anything for permanency, never told his Apostles or any follower to study, read, write or chew on Scripture. They were told to do and do they did. And this is why it is important to understand the early Church Fathers, because the teachings of Jesus through the apostles were orally transmitted to them.

[Show Me the Wire]

Jesus the Christ is an enigmatic figure to me...because his teaching survives only in fragments. Because it's fragmented and incomplete, it does not flow as naturally as the teaching of the Buddha, or Plato, or Plato's reports of the Socratic dialogues. Not only does it not flow naturally...but it is also prone to confusion and misunderstanding.

Christianity is a mystery religion and a very mystical faith. Another reason to read the early Church Fathers, Doctors and mystics. Christianity is very rich and complex and cannot be reduced to memorizing Scriptural verses. It is a faith of action and doing. Again this is touching on the esoteric teachings and goes beyond keeping this discussion simple.

[Show Me the Wire]

If Boxcar is right, and Jesus -- through his crucifixion -- has indeed washed out the sins of all of God's "chosen people", thus insuring their reservation to the "Heavenly Kingdom"..

Let me leave you with this thought. If boxcar's personal interpretation is correct then he is assigning more power to Adam than to the infinite God. If one man's transgression allowed sin to enter and reign in the world, but Christ, who is Divinity, is the new Adam and through his obedience, obedience even unto death upon the Cross, his act, was less powerful than Adam's because Christ's act only allowed Grace to enter on a very limited basis. Divinity's act is only powerful enough so only a few particular people and for their specific sins, would benefit, while a mere man, through transgression, affected everyone else for all generations?

If that was true then Apostle Paul was in serious error in teaching Christ as being the new Adam. The new Adam would have to have at the least the same impact on humanity as the old Adam did. If not, then Christ would not qualify as the new Adam, because his act has less impact than the original act of a man.

I know an infinite God has more power than a being called into existence from nothingness, I would hope other people would understand this simple balance of power.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Well, that may be. Hell, I'm sure, is filled with both types. But it's also well documented that she did good in the world.

There are additional allegations against Mother Teresa. First, that those working in her hospice had little or no medical training. Second, that no effort was made to determine which patients were terminal and which were treatable. Third, that sanitation in the hospice was poor or non-existent. If these allegations are true then she was complicit in multiple acts of negligent homicide.

So answer this Mr. boxcar, if you dare: How much good does it take to offset the act of killing someone through neglect?

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Actor

Third, that sanitation in the hospice was poor or non-existent. If these allegations are true then she was complicit in multiple acts of negligent homicide.

Total tripe.

If you knew anything about poverty in India and other third World countries you wouldn't express such an ignorant conclusion.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Err...how many versions can there be of unconditional love, which can only mean that we ought to love our fellow man even when there is no reason within him for doing so? How many versions of "no reason" can there be?

Your version is steeped in a Christian and literal biblical framework and exists under the auspices of a Christian anthropomorphic deity.
Different attitudes also exist without all of these boxcarian connotations.

--------------------------------------------------
The Buddha taught the following to his son Rahula (from "Old path white clouds" by Thich Nhat Hahn):

"Rahula, practice loving kindness to overcome anger. Loving kindness has the capacity to bring happiness to others without demanding anything in return.

Practice compassion to overcome cruelty. Compassion has the capacity to remove the suffering of others without expecting anything in return.

Practice sympathetic joy to overcome hatred. Sympathetic joy arises when one rejoices over the happiness of others and wishes others well-being and success.

Practice non-attachment to overcome prejudice. Non-attachment is the way of looking at all things openly and equally. This is because that is. Myself and others are not separate. Do not reject one thing only to chase after another

I call these the four immeasurables. Practice them and you will become a refreshing source of vitality and happiness for others."

------------------------------------------------------------

I would remind you our cats and dogs (especially dogs) do a decent job of showing unconditional love. Where is God in a cat's meow or a dog's bark?
Does Jesus cause your dog to wildly greet you when you come home after being away for some time?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Your version is steeped in a Christian and literal biblical framework and exists under the auspices of a Christian anthropomorphic deity.
Different attitudes also exist without all of these boxcarian connotations.

--------------------------------------------------
The Buddha taught the following to his son Rahula (from "Old path white clouds" by Thich Nhat Hahn):

"Rahula, practice loving kindness to overcome anger. Loving kindness has the capacity to bring happiness to others without demanding anything in return.

Practice compassion to overcome cruelty. Compassion has the capacity to remove the suffering of others without expecting anything in return.

Practice sympathetic joy to overcome hatred. Sympathetic joy arises when one rejoices over the happiness of others and wishes others well-being and success.

Practice non-attachment to overcome prejudice. Non-attachment is the way of looking at all things openly and equally. This is because that is. Myself and others are not separate. Do not reject one thing only to chase after another

I call these the four immeasurables. Practice them and you will become a refreshing source of vitality and happiness for others."

So, let me see...you really take this Buddha stuff literally? If so, how come you take the Big Bud literally and not Jesus?

By the way, I would think love would overcome hatred, since these are antithetical sentiments.

Finally, Buddha is too wordy. Jesus knew how to succinctly cut to the chase on things. "Love thy neighbor as they self....". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.".

Short and sweet...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Moving the goalposts again.

If I were a wealthy man I'd hire a staff of clerks to go through every one of your posts. I think they could find an average of one or more unqualified statements per post.

Well, you did. Words have meaning. Practice saying what you mean.

And what if I meant to make unqualified statements? Then what? Also, would you instruct your staff to lift my words out of context?

But now that I have you ear, permit me to ask: Do you believe that all men in all places at all times have a right to survive in this world for as long as they can and not be acted upon by murderers who would end their survival experience prematurely?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Okay, I have time now. Let me start out with a quote explaining why I don't feign to understand God or that I speak for God.

Hmm...I wonder if we should believe the inspired "first pope" or the uninspired Augustine?

1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may PROCLAIM the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
NASB

And Augustine must have missed this next text, as well:

Luke 19:37-40
And as He was now approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, 38 saying,

"Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39 And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to Him, "Teacher, rebuke Your disciples." 40 And He answered and said, "I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!"
NASB

What in the world was Jesus thinking?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

I am not writing any books, so let us cast aside that worry

When you say Church doctrine I take it to mean Roman Catholic dogma, since I adhere to this Church's interpretations. As you know there are many different sects with varying interpretations, based on their individual understanding of Scripture.

I am not familiar with Church doctrine that teaches it is unnecessary to love our enemies, to not refrain from resisting evil, to not refrain from judging others, or not to become like little children in trusting Our Father, or knowing what is good for us.

I am familiar with some other sects, which subscribe to some or all of those above-mentioned precepts.

Personally, I take Jesus teachings to heart. I try not to judge other people for I am not God and I do not know what is in their hearts or their circumstances and not having the ability to know their hearts no judgment by me would be righteous.

I try to love to the best of my ability, understanding everyone is my brother (sister) in the human condition and the Christ is the light of every human being. Love as I understand it to be is a sacrificial love, not unconditional. There is a difference. I try to forgive anyone that I perceived has offended me, so that anger will not fester.

Temptation is to be resisted. And I try my best to trust God even when I may perceive something bad or evil happened to me, understanding that what I may perceive as an evil may turn out to really be a great blessing in disguise.

I try to recognize God's will is to be done and not mine. After all Jesus asked His Father if the Cup of Sorrow could be taken away and His Father refused, to which my Lord Jesus replied thy will be done Father, not mine. I understand God gave man the gift of free will, which God does not infringe upon and I try not to impose my will on others trying to become mature as the Father is mature.

Notice, I say I try. Sometimes I fail and try to do better next time by asking God for His Graces to strengthen me. This is how I try to live my life.

What's the diff between your "sacrificial" love and unconditional? According to the next passage below what kind of love is in view?

Matt 5:44
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you
NASB