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Old 11-24-2017, 02:33 PM   #4621
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You're quite right about my "assumption" that God exists. And least my assumption, unlike your agnosticism, is not a self-defeating one.

Secondly, it is inferior to revealed divine law because of reasons I have already stated, plus the fact that with Natural Law the more deeply profound "spirit" of Law can never be observed. Essentially, Natural Law cannot teach its observers the Law of Love and how to concretely and positively apply or expresses that love. This is its number one failing since Love is the ultimate expression of revealed divine law. The real life example I provided earlier speaks pointedly to the superiority of divine revealed Law. Natural Law can tell us what we ought not to do, as wrong behavior affects our conscience; but, generally, it fails in telling us what we ought to do. The Decalogue, for example, would not inform that Christian woman of the more profound, spiritual principles of law that apply to her situation; therefore, how much less Natural Law!? Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments", yet she did not love Christ as she ought in her situation because she was willing (the last time we spoke anyhow) to break the revealed Law of Christ by ignoring a spiritual principle of His law. Therefore, she was in a state of sin at that time.
No matter how many times you use the phrase "self-defeating" in reference to views other than your own, it doesn't make it true.

The "Law of Love"? Really? It seems like you're just making up things now to justify your actions to constrain others. I might have given the woman advice that would have led to a similar outcome - but it would have been framed around the hazards of STDs and the phenomenon known as "gold digging", and would have included the human manipulation of worrying about what her neighbors thought.

This is where Natural Law has a big edge on Divine Law. It hasn't been polluted by interpretation, and can be used for purposes other than control.

Again, the self-defeating part of all this is the narrow views that some religions impose.
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Old 11-24-2017, 02:34 PM   #4622
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Not by chance. I'd wager that she had been indoctrinated in the method. A Buddhist might have sung a chant. An autistic might have recited "Solomon Grundy".
Right. Although I would not have used the word coincidental.
You do that. Great title for a book by the way.
Oh yes...of course...the brainwahsed refrain. Have you ever read any Darwin's works? Were you indoctrinated by them?
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Old 11-24-2017, 02:43 PM   #4623
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No matter how many times you use the phrase "self-defeating" in reference to views other than your own, it doesn't make it true.
It is true whenever a view is self-contradictory. Of if you don't like the term "self-defeating", there's always self-refuting upon which to fall back.

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The "Law of Love"? Really? It seems like you're just making up things now to justify your actions to constrain others. I might have given the woman advice that would have led to a similar outcome - but it would have been framed around the hazards of STDs and the phenomenon known as "gold digging", and would have included the human manipulation of worrying about what her neighbors thought.

This is where Natural Law has a big edge on Divine Law. It hasn't been polluted by interpretation, and can be used for purposes other than control.

Again, the self-defeating part of all this is the narrow views that some religions impose.
Yes, really. Jesus clearly taught that the entire OT hinged upon his two greatest commandments -- love for God and love for neighbor. Besides, Mr. Pirate, what virtue is greater than love? What virtue on this planet motivates more strongly to do good for our fellow man. Love is patient, it's gentle, it's kind, it doesn't rejoice in or approve of unrighteousness, it isn't boastful or arrogant, it's not jealous, it's not self-seeking, etc., etc. Read 1Cor 13 sometime.
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Old 11-24-2017, 02:54 PM   #4624
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Mr. Pirate, sir, to deny the validity of the laws of logic, you must use logic in your denial, and in so doing you affirm the validity of them.

While agnosticism violates the Law of Noncontradiction, this violation does not prove theism. It only proves that your agnosticism is self-contradictory (therefore, self-defeating); for A cannot at the same time and in the same sense be non-A. But your agnosticism implies this very contradiction. To say that God is unknown or unknowable implies that you know something about him in order for that statement to be rationale and taken seriously. It implies the very thing your agnosticism explicitly denies is possible, i.e. a true knowledge of something about God. But if you deny that you have a true knowledge of something about God in order to declare your agnosticism, then your agnosticism is nothing less than cognitive foolishness, masquerading as legitimate, sound philosophical thought.

Finally, to deny the validity of the laws of logic, most especially the "Big Three" -- the laws of Identity, Noncontradiction and Excluded Middle, is intellectual suicide in another sense -- it removes all ground for rational discussion and for that matter for all that we do! It reduces human beings to the level of irrational animals.

By the way, unlimited agnosticism is your brand of agnosticism. You are not a limited agnostic, which is biblical and what Christians are (1Cor 13:12).

I hope you will take the time to read the article for which I have provided the link.

http://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch004.htm
You make me laugh.

If we were discussing the fine points of logic and reasoning, we could go 'round in those pointless circles on all sorts of topics. But you're trying to justify the unprovable, and therefore your motivations are suspect. I've already expressed my disdain for philosophy in this thread, such as it's extremely limited by individual definitions, and commonly subject to twisting of words, of which you're employing here. My views of agnosticism are not intended to be legitimate or sound thought in the arena of philosophy, as I don't go in there to begin with. Unlike yourself, I accept limits to what we humans can understand about the Universe.

And for the record, humans are animals, often irrational, and have one foot firmly planted in the jungle - in spite of what the human-centric faiths teach. It's exactly this level hubris which leads me to believe religion has more ill effects than positive, especially when delivered in ironic fashion from a servant of the humble Christ.
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Old 11-24-2017, 03:06 PM   #4625
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...Besides, Mr. Pirate, what virtue is greater than love?
Hmmm. Humility comes to mind.

Like everything, Love is relative. Love in terms of the Marquis de Saud doesn't seem all that different than the definition you insist is required by God. We must participate, we must reciprocate in kind, and failure to do so has horrific consequences.

While I understand that theism can be explained on the inherent human need to replace the Father figure as one outgrows childhood, it simply amazes me that it's often accompanied by such zealous views on how to practice it. Next thing you know, we'll be tossing homosexuals off the top of tall buildings.

I don't doubt your faith in your beliefs, or the reality of your experiences that got your there. My guess would be, as I've observed in the vast majority of born-again Believers, that significant stress was taking place in your life, and that triggered a chemical reaction in your brain that's left what I would describe as permanent scars. But that's just a guess, and my perception on things.

Far be it for me to insist that view be adopted by others.
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Old 11-24-2017, 03:27 PM   #4626
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You make me laugh.

If we were discussing the fine points of logic and reasoning, we could go 'round in those pointless circles on all sorts of topics. But you're trying to justify the unprovable, and therefore your motivations are suspect. I've already expressed my disdain for philosophy in this thread, such as it's extremely limited by individual definitions, and commonly subject to twisting of words, of which you're employing here. My views of agnosticism are not intended to be legitimate or sound thought in the arena of philosophy, as I don't go in there to begin with. Unlike yourself, I accept limits to what we humans can understand about the Universe.

And for the record, humans are animals, often irrational, and have one foot firmly planted in the jungle - in spite of what the human-centric faiths teach. It's exactly this level hubris which leads me to believe religion has more ill effects than positive, especially when delivered in ironic fashion from a servant of the humble Christ.
Well then...I think we have exhausted this line of discussion since you have admitted that your agnosticism is not grounded in rational or sound thought. Quite pointless to go on. Perhaps I can find an educated monkey with whom to have an intelligent conversation, since you have put yourself on the same level of all monkeys. (I categorically reject your inane opinion that we're all on that same level with you.)

But for the record...I do agree with you that we are often irrational -- but not for the reasons you have given. What can make us irrational is our sinful nature.
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Old 11-24-2017, 05:22 PM   #4627
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Well then...I think we have exhausted this line of discussion since you have admitted that your agnosticism is not grounded in rational or sound thought. Quite pointless to go on. Perhaps I can find an educated monkey with whom to have an intelligent conversation, since you have put yourself on the same level of all monkeys. (I categorically reject your inane opinion that we're all on that same level with you.)

But for the record...I do agree with you that we are often irrational -- but not for the reasons you have given. What can make us irrational is our sinful nature.
Ouch. Such a clever retort, from the old-school Creationist debates. I'm disappointed in your lack of stamina, since I was just getting warmed up.

Views on the supernatural, including yours, are by definition "not grounded in rational or sound thought". Your inability or intentional choice to recognize the limits of what humans can understand is obviously clouding your thought process, and is somewhat dated - more along the lines when mankind thought the Earth was flat, and the Sun revolved around it. I certainly don't have any issues with someone who differs from my belief, but obviously you don't offer similar tolerance on this topic.

You appear to have all the answers, when the evidence is clearly lacking. Any "logic" built on the Bible (most likely written by man with no divine intervention) and on other, fallible human constructs, proves nothing. You can categorically reject being on my level, whatever that might be, but that hardly disproves it.

Embrace the monkey. Be One with the Monkey. Let your Monkey Mind be free.
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Old 11-24-2017, 07:16 PM   #4628
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Have you ever read any Darwin's works?
Yes. Have you?
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Were you indoctrinated by them?
The question you are really asking is "Did you accept them uncritically?" The answer is "No." I hold them to the same standards as everything else I read.
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Old 11-24-2017, 09:17 PM   #4629
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Agnostics learn to live a comfortable life without Jesus. Their wealth (our poor are wealthy from a global perspective) has left agnostics with a sense they have all they need to face life.

Agnostics don't always turn to Jesus in a crisis. they honestly don't think religion can help.

Last edited by porchy44; 11-24-2017 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 11-24-2017, 09:35 PM   #4630
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Ouch. Such a clever retort, from the old-school Creationist debates. I'm disappointed in your lack of stamina, since I was just getting warmed up.

Views on the supernatural, including yours, are by definition "not grounded in rational or sound thought". Your inability or intentional choice to recognize the limits of what humans can understand is obviously clouding your thought process, and is somewhat dated - more along the lines when mankind thought the Earth was flat, and the Sun revolved around it. I certainly don't have any issues with someone who differs from my belief, but obviously you don't offer similar tolerance on this topic.

You appear to have all the answers, when the evidence is clearly lacking. Any "logic" built on the Bible (most likely written by man with no divine intervention) and on other, fallible human constructs, proves nothing. You can categorically reject being on my level, whatever that might be, but that hardly disproves it.

Embrace the monkey. Be One with the Monkey. Let your Monkey Mind be free.
Warmed up for what? For you to implicitly affirm the validity of the laws of logic by explicitly denying their validity? Warmed over 2-day old french fries would be more palatable than the foolishness you have been serving up.

And I have a far better handle on the limits of human understanding than you can begin to imagine. After all, as an adherent to the Doctrines of Grace that I am, I'm fully aware of the profound implications to the doctrine of Total Depravity, in addition to the explicit teachings in scripture on this subject. This is precisely why divine revelation and divine grace are needed to understand it rightly. Of course, I fully understand how those not in the know and who champion agnosticism love to bring Christians down to their level of ignorance by claiming we're just as bankrupt in the knowledge department as they are. I know misery loves company, but you'll forgive me when I diverge from the broad path upon which you travel, since I also know it leads to a dead end in more ways than one, right?

And I'll pass on the monkey thingy, too. After all, as a first cousin to one, you have failed to impress me. Besides, I'm a cat lover.
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Old 11-24-2017, 09:43 PM   #4631
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Yes. Have you?
The question you are really asking is "Did you accept them uncritically?" The answer is "No." I hold them to the same standards as everything else I read.
No, the question I asked is what I asked. Were you brainwashed by Darwin's works?

And since your "standards" (which certainly can't be the laws of logic) are so low, then I have to think you have been led by your nose down the primrose path.

I don't have to read Darwin or any other evolutionist to understand that logically atheistic materialism/naturalism violates laws of logic.
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Old 11-24-2017, 09:45 PM   #4632
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.... Therefore, she was in a state of sin at that time.
Say, isn't there some verse in the Good Book about judging others?

I'm certainly thankful that I live in a country where we essentially have freedom of religion. An authoritarian theocracy would be a problem for me, but I gather from your comments in this thread it is the final destination you're looking forward to....
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Old 11-24-2017, 09:53 PM   #4633
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Agnostics learn to live a comfortable life without Jesus. Their wealth (our poor are wealthy from a global perspective) has left agnostics with a sense they have all they need to face life.

Agnostics don't always turn to Jesus in a crisis. they honestly don't think religion can help.
Well, I think many people of different faiths can live a comfortable life without Jesus, though I don't try to sway anyone one way or the other. Agnostics are a very slim minority, and we don't always show up in the surveys, I suppose 'cause were statistically insignificant.

A true agnostic wouldn't turn to Jesus in a crisis, but that's not to say that some don't find God in that event. Eight years ago I was in a bad motorcycle accident when I hit a deer, and almost died. My brother, a devout Christian, asked me if I felt any spiritual moment, had my life flash before my eyes, or anything else. Nope. No bright white lights, no angels singing, nothing. As I started to go into shock, I did think, "aw s**t, this isn't good." Fortunately, a girl that stopped to help called her mom, who is a registered nurse, and she was there in a few minutes - and possibly saved my life. Unlike the EMTs, who showed up 30 mins later.

Maybe it was that God of Coincidence looking out for me.
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:05 PM   #4634
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Warmed up for what? For you to implicitly affirm the validity of the laws of logic by explicitly denying their validity? Warmed over 2-day old french fries would be more palatable than the foolishness you have been serving up.

And I have a far better handle on the limits of human understanding than you can begin to imagine. After all, as an adherent to the Doctrines of Grace that I am, I'm fully aware of the profound implications to the doctrine of Total Depravity, in addition to the explicit teachings in scripture on this subject. This is precisely why divine revelation and divine grace are needed to understand it rightly. Of course, I fully understand how those not in the know and who champion agnosticism love to bring Christians down to their level of ignorance by claiming we're just as bankrupt in the knowledge department as they are. I know misery loves company, but you'll forgive me when I diverge from the broad path upon which you travel, since I also know it leads to a dead end in more ways than one, right?

And I'll pass on the monkey thingy, too. After all, as a first cousin to one, you have failed to impress me. Besides, I'm a cat lover.
Cats make for good target practice.

What is apparent to me, and some of the other Christian posters on this thread, is that you have a handle on YOUR understanding of your religious views, and it definitely shows the severe indoctrination and brainwashing that has occurred. Your high and mighty pontification conflicts to an extreme degree the version of Christ I was taught in confirmation classes. You can keep throwing out the straw man diversions and insults, but at the end of the day you've got nothing outside of your interpretation of scripture and your twisted philosophy to help justify it.

I told my roommate in college this, and I feel it applies to you as well - if Christ does return in our lifetimes, I'm betting I'll be in a better position to make my case for salvation than you will. Just my opinion.

As for the monkey reference, I'm not surprised you didn't catch it, since it's outside your comfort zone/echo chamber:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_monkey

But it was nice that you could come back with that 7th grade level slam on being a cousin to one.
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:35 PM   #4635
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No, the question I asked is what I asked. Were you brainwashed by Darwin's works?
Thanks for the clarification. Well, going by M-W's definition of brainwashing ...

1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

...the answer is still "No." No one forced me give up any political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes. Nor are any of Darwin's ideas regimented since they could be overturned at any time by an opposing theory which passes peer review.
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