Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 09-06-2020, 12:50 PM   #46
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
I would say that would defy all probabilities with 34 states siding with drug using owners and trainers.

I assume that state regulators act in the best interests of the state.
That's the race to the bottom point. All it actually takes is a couple to side with the horsemen. Then everyone else follows suit because they can't lose horses to the other states.

The most obvious example of where this happened was Lasix. Once a few states decided to allow Lasix and that they weren't going to require proof of bleeding, detention barns, etc., the floodgates opened and other states were forced to go along. New York held out for as long as it could, but in the end, even they had to cave.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-06-2020, 01:01 PM   #47
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
That's the race to the bottom point. All it actually takes is a couple to side with the horsemen. Then everyone else follows suit because they can't lose horses to the other states.

The most obvious example of where this happened was Lasix. Once a few states decided to allow Lasix and that they weren't going to require proof of bleeding, detention barns, etc., the floodgates opened and other states were forced to go along. New York held out for as long as it could, but in the end, even they had to cave.
Could it be that there just isn't a consensus on what needs to be done regarding drugs?
__________________
Best writing advice ever received: Never use a long word when a diminutive one will suffice.
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-06-2020, 01:56 PM   #48
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Could it be that there just isn't a consensus on what needs to be done regarding drugs?
No, because even now plenty of people in the sport oppose raceday furosemide and many countries ban it.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-06-2020, 02:23 PM   #49
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
No, because even now plenty of people in the sport oppose raceday furosemide and many countries ban it.
Apparently plenty of people also support race day furosemide. If not, please list the people that are standing in the way banning race day use. You can start in California.
__________________
Best writing advice ever received: Never use a long word when a diminutive one will suffice.
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-07-2020, 12:47 PM   #50
ultracapper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by airford1 View Post
Mine too

Name one thing the Government managed well?
TVA, National Interstate system. It's a couple things anyway. Old things.
ultracapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-07-2020, 01:43 PM   #51
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Apparently plenty of people also support race day furosemide. If not, please list the people that are standing in the way banning race day use. You can start in California.
I don't doubt that plenty of people support race day Lasix. The thing is, they are horsemen.

One of the reasons the World Anti-Doping Agency exists is because you have to separate your regulation of a sport from the participants. If you put coaches and athletes in charge of doping policy, or people who are close to coaches and athletes, they won't do anything about doping. If you put the player's union in charge of doping policy in baseball, well, they have members who like hitting 60 home runs.

So what you do is you put people in charge who are distant and have no personal relationship with anyone in the sport. All they care about is the doping issue.

We have a situation where a bunch of powerful horsemen are making a lot of money with their big win percentages produced by doping. And states have to cater to them. To stop doping, we need to curb their influence. Federalizing is one way to do that.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-07-2020, 04:38 PM   #52
Dave Schwartz
 
Dave Schwartz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 16,873
Dilanesp,

The problem is that with such a high percentage of horses who really need lasix (or similar), if it was removed now there would be about 60% less horses.

Simply put, there would be no horses to run races.

IMHO, it would need to be a gradual process of removal, and the incentive would need to be extra purse money for horses running without lasix.
Dave Schwartz is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-07-2020, 08:26 PM   #53
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
I don't doubt that plenty of people support race day Lasix. The thing is, they are horsemen.

One of the reasons the World Anti-Doping Agency exists is because you have to separate your regulation of a sport from the participants. If you put coaches and athletes in charge of doping policy, or people who are close to coaches and athletes, they won't do anything about doping. If you put the player's union in charge of doping policy in baseball, well, they have members who like hitting 60 home runs.

So what you do is you put people in charge who are distant and have no personal relationship with anyone in the sport. All they care about is the doping issue.

We have a situation where a bunch of powerful horsemen are making a lot of money with their big win percentages produced by doping. And states have to cater to them. To stop doping, we need to curb their influence. Federalizing is one way to do that.
Many people believe Lasix is medication and not doping. I guess you can't trust those people who work with horses everyday to make good decisions about their horses.

Using Lasix isn't doping. Everybody knows who is using and who isn't. Do you really believe that Lasix is what makes these "powerful horsemen" win races?
__________________
Best writing advice ever received: Never use a long word when a diminutive one will suffice.
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-08-2020, 02:25 AM   #54
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
The problem is that with such a high percentage of horses who really need lasix (or similar), if it was removed now there would be about 60% less horses.

Simply put, there would be no horses to run races.
Breeding bleeders for careers on the track probably isn't a good idea, then.


If the rest of the horses in the world don't need it to race and can still fill cards, then I tend to think of our use of it as an aberration.

aberration: "a departure from what is normal, usual, or expected, typically one that is unwelcome. "

I've read a lot of interviews with trainers the world over who don't use drugs and apparently, they adapt their horse training methods to that model. Maybe they can give seminars.

Last edited by clicknow; 09-08-2020 at 02:26 AM.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-16-2020, 07:16 PM   #55
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,527
Here's an update

https://www.drf.com/news/near-certai...host-questions

Quote:
A fear among horseplayers is that states, under the lobbying of tracks and horsemen who are already operating on thin margins, will look to the takeout to raise their shares of the authority’s budget. There’s nothing in the bill to stop this, according to officials. Lear said that he, “personally, would not like to see that.”
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

Last edited by classhandicapper; 09-16-2020 at 07:21 PM.
classhandicapper is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-24-2020, 05:50 PM   #56
jay68802
Registered User
 
jay68802's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,110
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...of-medications
jay68802 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-25-2020, 09:58 AM   #57
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Many people believe Lasix is medication and not doping. I guess you can't trust those people who work with horses everyday to make good decisions about their horses.

Using Lasix isn't doping. Everybody knows who is using and who isn't. Do you really believe that Lasix is what makes these "powerful horsemen" win races?
Using Lasix is doping. And horsemen aren't trustworthy for the same reason the baseball players weren't trustworthy during the steroid era.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-25-2020, 12:00 PM   #58
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
Using Lasix is doping. And horsemen aren't trustworthy for the same reason the baseball players weren't trustworthy during the steroid era.
Doping is a pejorative term. In that Lasix is a legal medication in most jurisdictions I would disagree with your declaration.
__________________
Best writing advice ever received: Never use a long word when a diminutive one will suffice.
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-29-2020, 09:41 PM   #59
jay68802
Registered User
 
jay68802's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,110
Passes House.

http://wtop.com/animals-pets/2020/09...-horse-racing/
jay68802 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-29-2020, 10:05 PM   #60
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Doping is a pejorative term. In that Lasix is a legal medication in most jurisdictions I would disagree with your declaration.
Doping is an appropriately pejorative term. "Legal medication" is spin.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.