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View Poll Results: Which best describes your view on ground loss
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Critical part of trip handicapping. I spend a lot of time on it
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49 |
25.00% |
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I look at it, but it's somewhat overrated
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35 |
17.86% |
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I never pay attention
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42 |
21.43% |
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I only pay attention on biased days
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5 |
2.55% |
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I only pay attention when it's extreme
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26 |
13.27% |
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I only pay attention when the horse is being used hard
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8 |
4.08% |
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Option 4 and 5
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6 |
3.06% |
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Option 4 and 6
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2 |
1.02% |
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Option 5 and 6
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6 |
3.06% |
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Option 4, 5 and 6
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17 |
8.67% |
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05-06-2019, 05:57 PM
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Max Sec was in front when he came off the rail, and that ground loss put him back to 17th! Class has a point.....
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Tom, even with all your green rep bars...you are still an underrated poster here, IMO.  
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"Theory is knowledge that doesn't work. Practice is when everything works and you don't know why."
-- Hermann Hesse
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05-07-2019, 12:45 PM
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#47
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Max Sec was in front when he came off the rail, and that ground loss put him back to 17th! Class has a point.....
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It will be interesting to see what kind of figure Game Winner runs if he ever gets a 2 wide trip instead of always being in the parking lot.
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"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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05-07-2019, 03:00 PM
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#48
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,861
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What did Thorograph give him?
I forgot to download the day old file by Monday.
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Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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05-07-2019, 03:21 PM
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#49
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
What did Thorograph give him?
I forgot to download the day old file by Monday.
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I think TG will post their final figures for the race sometime this week. Haven't seen them yet.
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05-08-2019, 10:05 AM
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#50
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,861
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Thanks, Bob, didn't know he would post them other than in the Red Board room.
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Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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05-08-2019, 10:42 AM
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#51
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Thanks, Bob, didn't know he would post them other than in the Red Board room.
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That is where he posts them, just think this one is taking a little longer than usual. Probably being safe and getting the ground loss right.
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05-09-2019, 10:51 AM
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#52
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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The ground loss stuff at Trakus for the Derby has changed quite a bit. Where the numbers are coming from, who knows?
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05-09-2019, 11:10 AM
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
The ground loss stuff at Trakus for the Derby has changed quite a bit. Where the numbers are coming from, who knows?
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I see they have him losing about 10 lengths overall and about 7 lengths more than Max Sec.. The same as Class. Maybe they asked him.  Should be interesting to see what T-Graph says. JB says it should be up today.
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05-09-2019, 11:26 AM
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
The ground loss stuff at Trakus for the Derby has changed quite a bit. Where the numbers are coming from, who knows?
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It's a shame the technology is probably not ready for prime time.
It's not that I'm going to make a big deal over a few feet one way or the other. Watching the race with head on replays is not totally accurate either. But they can't afford to make any big mistakes. Then you can't trust rest of the data.
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"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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05-09-2019, 11:31 AM
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,612
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I'm going to guess that TG has Game Winner 3 wide 1st turn and as much as 8 wide 2nd turn.
I'm used to comparing my notes to TG. TG tends to call horses a little wider than I do because I assume some space between each horse. So if I had had him between the 2 and 3 path 1st turn, they'll probably have him 3w.
I had him 6 wide for most of the 2nd turn, out to 8 wide late turn, and than as much as 10 wide leaving the turn. They'll probably round that off 7 or 8 wide.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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05-09-2019, 07:11 PM
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I'm going to guess that TG has Game Winner 3 wide 1st turn and as much as 8 wide 2nd turn.
I'm used to comparing my notes to TG. TG tends to call horses a little wider than I do because I assume some space between each horse. So if I had had him between the 2 and 3 path 1st turn, they'll probably have him 3w.
I had him 6 wide for most of the 2nd turn, out to 8 wide late turn, and than as much as 10 wide leaving the turn. They'll probably round that off 7 or 8 wide.
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TG has him 3 wide and 7 wide with a figure of 0 1/4.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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05-09-2019, 07:13 PM
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I'm going to guess that TG has Game Winner 3 wide 1st turn and as much as 8 wide 2nd turn.
I'm used to comparing my notes to TG. TG tends to call horses a little wider than I do because I assume some space between each horse. So if I had had him between the 2 and 3 path 1st turn, they'll probably have him 3w.
I had him 6 wide for most of the 2nd turn, out to 8 wide late turn, and than as much as 10 wide leaving the turn. They'll probably round that off 7 or 8 wide.
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T-Graph Derby figures are out. JB agrees with both Class and Trakus that Game Winner Was 3w7w and 10 wide overall.
He also give GW the best figures at 0.25. Country House .50 and Max Sec 1.25.
I expected GW to get the best figure but was surprised that CH did so well though actually it was just a .75 improvement over his last race and he did get a great setup.
Last edited by bobphilo; 05-09-2019 at 07:22 PM.
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05-09-2019, 07:28 PM
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
It's a shame the technology is probably not ready for prime time.
It's not that I'm going to make a big deal over a few feet one way or the other. Watching the race with head on replays is not totally accurate either. But they can't afford to make any big mistakes. Then you can't trust rest of the data.
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With a field this size it's not strange that they had to go back and make a correction. Maybe the beam had trouble passing through so many horses. They ended up with the same ground loss as you and T-Graph so that sounds pretty solid. Even the best figure makers have to sometimes make corrections to their original figures.
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05-09-2019, 07:42 PM
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#59
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
T-Graph Derby figures are out. JB agrees with both Class and Trakus that Game Winner Was 3w7w and 10 wide overall.
He also give GW the best figures at 0.25. Country House .50 and Max Sec 1.25.
I expected GW to get the best figure but was surprised that CH did so well though actually it was just a .75 improvement over his last race and he did get a great setup.
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Slight correction - CH improved his last race figure by 1.75 not .75. Not unusual for a growing 3YO.
GW paired his same .25 figure over his last 2 and Max Sac improved slightly from 2.50 to 2.25
These 2 stayed in a pretty tight range.
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05-10-2019, 11:25 AM
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#60
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
With a field this size it's not strange that they had to go back and make a correction. Maybe the beam had trouble passing through so many horses. They ended up with the same ground loss as you and T-Graph so that sounds pretty solid. Even the best figure makers have to sometimes make corrections to their original figures.
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This is different in my opinion, because there isn't supposed to be judgement used. The tech fails way too often and I think what we are getting here is somebody watched the races and fixed the faulty readings from the radio transmitters. That is fine, it is good that they fixed it. But trying to pass off the data as if it were done using the Trakus system (if that is what is happening, we'll never know) is not a good look. They should use some transparency here. Hard to trust the data when they don't.
This race was scrutinized by so many people because it is the Derby and they had to act. Does anyone for a second think a typical Tuesday race at Indiana Grand is getting this kind of scrutiny?
Last edited by cj; 05-10-2019 at 07:40 PM.
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