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Old 10-14-2020, 05:19 PM   #196
Nitro
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I mean it is painfully obvious Lasix makes horses run faster and since speed figures for the races are largely based on races where horses are using Lasix, they are going to come back slower. The jumps next year will be bigger than the usual "improving 3yo" jumps. It will be important to factor that in when using the projection method to make numbers.

I'm not saying Lasix is good or bad, by the way. It is just a fact that it makes horses run faster races.
I guess Run Happy's opposition needed more than Lasix to be competitive?!
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Old 10-14-2020, 06:57 PM   #197
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I guess Run Happy's opposition needed more than Lasix to be competitive?!
He'd have run faster with Lasix, the others slower without. It isn't that hard to grasp.
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Old 10-14-2020, 08:18 PM   #198
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He'd have run faster with Lasix, the others slower without. It isn't that hard to grasp.
It is when it's not factual. I don't believe you can make generalized statements like that when in fact race times across the board particularly on dirt Stakes races have been getting slower year after year since drugs were legalized.

In fact, there's no comparison between recent race times and the years before drugs were permitted. As an example, I defy anyone to prove that the times for the KY Derby have been getting faster since Lasix was introduced.
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Old 10-14-2020, 09:03 PM   #199
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It is when it's not factual. I don't believe you can make generalized statements like that when in fact race times across the board particularly on dirt Stakes races have been getting slower year after year since drugs were legalized.

In fact, there's no comparison between recent race times and the years before drugs were permitted. As an example, I defy anyone to prove that the times for the KY Derby have been getting faster since Lasix was introduced.
Ever consider racetracks might be getting slower, maybe for safety reasons?

Here is one link of several available that explains why you can't just look at raw times:

http://www.espn.com/horse/columns/misc/1923297.html

It is tougher to study now because nearly all horses (until this year in some circuits) run on Lasix for all starts. But it wasn't always this way and it was easy to study the increase in speed for horses adding Lasix. I'm not talking about horses that bled badly and obviously needed it, but during the era when others starting using it just because. What was the just because? It didn't take long for other trainers to figure out those running on Lasix had a competitive advantage. That is how we wound up in the spot we are in where nearly every horse gets it, need it or not.

There are way too many variables in horse racing to compare across eras. You have to compare individual horses running with and without Lasix and see when they run faster.

Last edited by cj; 10-14-2020 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 10-14-2020, 10:08 PM   #200
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Ever consider racetracks might be getting slower, maybe for safety reasons?

Here is one link of several available that explains why you can't just look at raw times:

http://www.espn.com/horse/columns/misc/1923297.html

It is tougher to study now because nearly all horses (until this year in some circuits) run on Lasix for all starts. But it wasn't always this way and it was easy to study the increase in speed for horses adding Lasix. I'm not talking about horses that bled badly and obviously needed it, but during the era when others starting using it just because. What was the just because? It didn't take long for other trainers to figure out those running on Lasix had a competitive advantage. That is how we wound up in the spot we are in where nearly every horse gets it, need it or not.

There are way too many variables in horse racing to compare across eras. You have to compare individual horses running with and without Lasix and see when they run faster.
By the way, it's extremely obvious here in Southern California that dirt racetracks are getting slower. If you went to Santa Anita in the 1980's, you'd regularly see cheap claimers go 21 3/5 to the quarter mile in sprints and 22 4/5 to the quarter mile in routes. Now you see a lot of dirt routes with 24 and 48 fractions, even in allowance races, which used to be considered walking out here.

You also no longer see the 1:09 and change final times you used to see. Breaking 1:10 now is quite good. It used to be you'd see $25,000 claimers break 1:10.
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Old 10-15-2020, 09:53 AM   #201
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Lasix is a tough example since it has clear, positive therapeutic value for the horses, but also has more or less been proven to enhance performance and essentially does make them run faster. One could make clear, intelligible arguments both for or against its use on race day.

Part of the problem is, as with most therapeutics, the effect is variable depending on the exact individual. I wish I still had access to the results and body of the study that was done about 15 years ago on the performance effect the drug has on horses. The results indicated there was an unquestionable positive effect on performance due to dropped weight, which makes logical sense. If you weigh less you are able to run faster, all other factors being equal. Individual horses were quickly dropping anywhere from 25-150 pounds of water weight after administration.


Still, that is only one published study, though there may be more since; been awhile since I looked in the digests and journals for this as it relates to racing and horses, in general.
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Old 10-15-2020, 03:36 PM   #202
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Old 10-15-2020, 03:40 PM   #203
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As it should be. It was pretty brazen of Justify's owners, who got the benefit of a secret hearing back in the day that saved their Santa Anita Derby win, wanted the courts to stop a public hearing into the matter.
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:48 PM   #204
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I think all the drugging of horses has made the breed weaker. While lasix may have short term benefits who knows what it does to their long term health. It's like human athletics. Steroids and HGH provide short term benefits but cause long term health issues.
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:05 PM   #205
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I think all the drugging of horses has made the breed weaker. While lasix may have short term benefits who knows what it does to their long term health. It's like human athletics. Steroids and HGH provide short term benefits but cause long term health issues.

Watching horses drop dead while running 35 mph is a horrific sight to see. Why so many are pushing to remove a drug that can help prevent exercise induced pulmonary hemorrhage is mind boggling.
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:41 AM   #206
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Watching horses drop dead while running 35 mph is a horrific sight to see. Why so many are pushing to remove a drug that can help prevent exercise induced pulmonary hemorrhage is mind boggling.
Because it is a performance enhancer and masking agent.
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Old 10-22-2020, 07:34 PM   #207
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Positive test for Gamine in the Kentucky Oaks. The sport is going to have to do something.
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Old 10-22-2020, 07:42 PM   #208
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Positive test for Gamine in the Kentucky Oaks. The sport is going to have to do something.
Any idea what it was?
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Old 10-22-2020, 07:47 PM   #209
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/22/s...e=articleShare
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Old 10-22-2020, 08:09 PM   #210
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Any idea what it was?
Whatever it was, it didn't work.
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