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View Poll Results: Mega Barn "Super" Trainers are............... (You can choose more than one answer)
Good for the game 13 10.00%
Bad for the game 81 62.31%
Have "Super Vets" and "Super" vet bills 47 36.15%
Just work harder than everyone else 11 8.46%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 130. This poll is closed

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Old 06-21-2018, 02:22 AM   #31
ctownraces@bp
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The biggest turds at the tracks are not in the barn, they ar in the Clubhouse.
The game needs to be regulated by the Feds, because of the various states involved.
Kind of like the ISO Standards - with third party certifications and audits.
It is a TOTAL JOKE to think any race track can police itself.
SUPER trainers are nothing more than equine mafia.


Spot On Tom

Last edited by ctownraces@bp; 06-21-2018 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:34 AM   #32
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The biggest turds at the tracks are not in the barn, they ar in the Clubhouse.
The game needs to be regulated by the Feds, because of the various states involved.
Kind of like the ISO Standards - with third party certifications and audits.
It is a TOTAL JOKE to think any race track can police itself.
SUPER trainers are nothing more than equine mafia.


Tom...I am with you 110%
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:46 AM   #33
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Perhaps it is time to start some grass-roots movement.
I'm sure we could find people in the press who would love the story.....
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:33 AM   #34
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Excerpt:

“There’s no question that super trainers are a problem,” said Tim Ritvo, the COO of the Stronach Group. “In California, 20% of the guys are winning 80% of the money. These are guys who are successful and have worked hard all their lives, so you don’t want to penalize them. America is all about free enterprise. But there needs to be more of a balance and if there’s not, we’re not going to have anyone left to run against these big guys.”

Excerpt:

“We have to try to help these guys,” said Ritvo, a former trainer. “When you talk about day in and day out racing like we have at Gulfstream with 250-some dates, the cheaper races are actually the ones we make the most money on. The economic engine of this game is the guy who bets and they don’t want a five-horse field with a 1-9 shot. The smaller trainer is the backbone of the game and the reason we can have elongated meets. To do so, you need guys like me who came up through the food chain winning average races. The sport simply cannot afford to have these people go out of business.”
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:13 PM   #35
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doesn't matter what i think

i'm not important enough in the grand scheme of things for my opinion to matter. Instead, it's my understanding of the system and my adaptability that I should be worried about.

Power concentrates. Should we be focused on artificially equalizing trainers? I do not know enough to have a valid opinion about that, but I do know that I'm not important enough to concern myself about it. I'll try my best to see and understand how it works and to adapt.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:23 PM   #36
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Maybe PA.
I was the one that brought up the steroids with Big Red in the first place.
(Anybody think Lucien Lauren was a great trainer before or after? They had to use Turcotte because he was the only one strong enough.)

Baffert and his breeder/owners have now perfected it.

Who's next?
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:34 PM   #37
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PA,
To answer your question.
I thought he ran the greatest races ever, but, was far from the greatest horse ever.
The horse not only looked like a sprinter, he was bred that way.
Why do you think Phipps took the other horse with the coin flip?
Meadow Stable got hold of the juice to save the farm, is my opinion.
The old man had lost control of it when he got seriously ill.
I don't think he had anything to do with it - the drugging.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:29 PM   #38
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CHRB's Rick Arthur makes a good case for undetectable performance enhancing drugs in training that although out of system still enhance performance on race day. Also first time I've ever heard anyone speak of drugs that impede performance (I guess if you want to stiff a horse).

Been a big critic of Rick Arthur over the years but believe he's spot on in this case.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:49 PM   #39
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Secretariat was juiced to the gills. You probably think he's one of the best ever.

Look at that sucker's neck. Built like an NFL linebacker juicing like there is no tomorrow.

Look up the history of steroids and tell me the 1970s weren't the golden age of steroid usage in horse racing. Three triple crowns that decade...hmmmm...what a coincidence.

And Riva Ridge didn't do too shabby either...maybe he was their test case and they perfected the ratio with Secretariat.
He may very well have been on steroids, but your understanding of how they work defeats your argument.

Steriods are primarily for recovery. They help speed up healing the inherent damage of physical exertion. Back in the 70s people didn't understand this. People didn't really understand this until the late 1990s to be honest.

They don't really make atheletes faster, they make them tougher and more aggressive/competitive. In regards to their increasing muscle mass, this is only a benefit in sports in which endurance is not an issue, because muscles are expensive energy-wise and they increase the weight to power ratio. As weight increases, power decreases. This is why just about any motorcycle can beat any car. This is one part of the diuretic/Lasix trinty, you literally drain weight to increase power. The other two parts are masking other drugs and buffering lactic acid.

In sprinters, the increase in muscle mass/strength increases strike force of foot/hoof to ground, which increases propulsion, but at a steep energy price. And it makes them aggressive, which you need when charging out of the gate/blocks. In humans the increasing muscle mass disadvantage is clearly seen in runners. Sprinters have legs like Popeye's arms, milers are much leaner, marathoners are skeletal. You see this less in swimming because of the power needed to dislocate water, but you still see it.

Being doped to the gills with steriods would have negatively impacted Secretariat's Belmont. However, moderate use would have kept his appetite healthy, his weight on, his energy up, his coat shiny, and his aggression stoked, which is seen in bucking, biting, fighting exercise riders etc. Horses that don't show the physical effects of 3 races in 5 weeks are on steroids. Period.

EPO did not exist in the 1970s or even the 1980s. It entered human sports in the 1990s, and likely did not take hold in horseracing until the 2000s. Say what you want about Secretariat, Slew, and Affirmed, but they weren't running on EPO and it is the most beneificial dope a doper can dope with because it increases your VO2 Max. They were running on their own inherent athletic capacity. You cannot say this of EPO-era horses, like AP and Justify. The odds these two horses are EPO free are greater than the odds of the 2nd Coming, coming at 6:47 this evening, just in time for hotdogs on the Solstice.

I loved Holy Bull too. He was almost certainly running on steriods.

You can replace Secretariat's name with Justify's in your comment and have an equally true discription of the horse. You can also hhmmmm about 2 TCs in 3 years, by the same trainer, and run almost identically. At least in the 70s, there were 3 very different horses, owned by wholly unconnected people, who ran completely different races.

The article in this thread about the peptide doping vortex out of Arizona should make us all pause. It is too bad the FBI has not released the whole list of clients. It has released the atheltes and human trainers it knows, but there are dozens of names it does not recognize. How many of those would we recognize I wonder.

Last edited by papillon; 06-21-2018 at 03:55 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:54 PM   #40
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the internet, where people speak vague understandings as if they are facts...
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:03 PM   #41
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the internet, where people speak vague understandings as if they are facts...

If you mean me, I was in cycling from 1988 until 2003. I could teach doctors about blood doping. It was my sport that taught everyone the lesson that you can't go above 50% with EPO or you will die. We learned that when 18 18-21 year old Belgians on the top team in the world at the time all dropped dead of heart attacks. Their autopsies showed they had sludge for blood. EPO increaes red blood cell, you only have so much room in your arteries.

I'll compare LeMond to Secretariat. LeMond may very well have been on steroids, but his natural V02 Max was 80%. Lance Armstrong's was under 40%. Armstrong couldn't even get a 4 minute mile when he was a triathelete punk in highschool or hold our wheels in the MS150 from Houston to Austin.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:11 PM   #42
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:20 PM   #43
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If you mean me, I was in cycling from 1988 until 2003. I could teach doctors about blood doping. It was my sport that taught everyone the lesson that you can't go above 50% with EPO or you will die. We learned that when 18 18-21 year old Belgians on the top team in the world at the time all dropped dead of heart attacks. Their autopsies showed they had sludge for blood. EPO increaes red blood cell, you only have so much room in your arteries.

I'll compare LeMond to Secretariat. LeMond may very well have been on steroids, but his natural V02 Max was 80%. Lance Armstrong's was under 40%. Armstrong couldn't even get a 4 minute mile when he was a triathelete punk in highschool or hold our wheels in the MS150 from Houston to Austin.
Keep posting. We're all getting closer to the truth.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:22 PM   #44
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CHRB's Rick Arthur makes a good case for undetectable performance enhancing drugs in training that although out of system still enhance performance on race day.
Masochistic.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:25 PM   #45
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Masochistic.
Yes, the steroid thing is one way but it was legal when he did it. It just didn't metabolize in time. Pretty sure the other guys are using substances far more advanced than the typical steroid treatment. Can't wait to hear more.
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