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05-18-2018, 12:26 PM
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#16
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggestal99
The Greatest American racehorse of all time.
In this year of 2018.
There are still only 2 (and those two are interchangeable)
1. Man O war
1A. Secretariat
Justify??
LOL.
Allan
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Some very knowledgeable people think CITATION was better than Secretariat.
Secretariat LOST FIVE TIMES. Unbelievable as that may seem.
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05-18-2018, 12:29 PM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Western Kentucky
Posts: 273
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I think a case can be made that Arrogate's World Cup win was a GOAT race. Considering the trip, the stage and the horse he beat, it was the kind of effort you would see from a GOAT. But that effort, seemingly, took so much out of him that you can't call him the GOAT. But on that night, he was the best I've ever seen.
__________________
Is there no standard anymore?
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05-18-2018, 12:31 PM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 5,875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion Monster
I think a case can be made that Arrogate's World Cup win was a GOAT race. Considering the trip, the stage and the horse he beat, it was the kind of effort you would see from a GOAT. But that effort, seemingly, took so much out of him that you can't call him the GOAT. But on that night, he was the best I've ever seen.
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Its too bad what happened to him after Dubai, his 4 race streak were as good as I seen from a horse in 25 years. Fast, legit, over came trouble. Those 4 wins were not hype.
When he was right he dusted a horse like Gun Runner, not once, but twice. Ran down a completely loose California Chrome. Yea.
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05-18-2018, 01:02 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB@BP
Its too bad what happened to him after Dubai, his 4 race streak were as good as I seen from a horse in 25 years. Fast, legit, over came trouble. Those 4 wins were not hype.
When he was right he dusted a horse like Gun Runner, not once, but twice. Ran down a completely loose California Chrome. Yea.
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The thing is, he isn't comparable to a horse like Affirmed, who had all those wins over Alydar at 2 and 3, and then beat up on everyone, ran fast times, and defeated Spectacular Bid at 4.
He obviously isn't comparable to Secretariat. Or Citation. Or Swaps.
Indeed, he really isn't even comparable to a horse like Cigar, who won 16 races in a row over mostly top competition.
4 great races is not a career. Arrogate was a flash in the pan by traditional racing standards.
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05-18-2018, 01:23 PM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 5,875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
The thing is, he isn't comparable to a horse like Affirmed, who had all those wins over Alydar at 2 and 3, and then beat up on everyone, ran fast times, and defeated Spectacular Bid at 4.
He obviously isn't comparable to Secretariat. Or Citation. Or Swaps.
Indeed, he really isn't even comparable to a horse like Cigar, who won 16 races in a row over mostly top competition.
4 great races is not a career. Arrogate was a flash in the pan by traditional racing standards.
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I get it, there is no horse that can ever compare to any horse before, oh lets say 1982ish....they are all flash in the pan because they will never race as much.
I said 25 years so I could get away from that discussion.
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05-18-2018, 03:26 PM
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#21
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggestal99
The Greatest American racehorse of all time.
In this year of 2018.
There are still only 2 (and those two are interchangeable)
1. Man O war
1A. Secretariat
Justify??
LOL.
Allan
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As my moniker would hint, there's at least one other who I think vies with those two for all-time supremecy.
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05-18-2018, 03:27 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB@BP
I get it, there is no horse that can ever compare to any horse before, oh lets say 1982ish....they are all flash in the pan because they will never race as much.
I said 25 years so I could get away from that discussion.
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Game on Dude had a traditional career.
So did California Chrome, really.
It's still possible to do it.
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05-18-2018, 03:29 PM
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#23
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB@BP
Its too bad what happened to him after Dubai, his 4 race streak were as good as I seen from a horse in 25 years. Fast, legit, over came trouble. Those 4 wins were not hype.
When he was right he dusted a horse like Gun Runner, not once, but twice. Ran down a completely loose California Chrome. Yea.
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But how do you know his performances weren't artificially enhanced? It's not pulling out of thin air when his trainer had 7 drop dead not too long ago.
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05-18-2018, 03:31 PM
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#24
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
But how do you know his performances weren't artificially enhanced? It's not pulling out of thin air when his trainer had 7 drop dead not too long ago.
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You could play that game with any horse from any era. Certainly testing wasn't nearly what it is today 25 years ago. It gets exponentially worse as you go back in time.
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05-18-2018, 05:28 PM
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#25
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
You could play that game with any horse from any era. Certainly testing wasn't nearly what it is today 25 years ago. It gets exponentially worse as you go back in time.
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Yes and no. Worse testing, but far worse drugs too. Arsenic tonics, for example. Ok. Not sure how that's supposed to help. EPO, cobalt, we know how that truly works to make a horse keep right on rolling.
There are cheats today as well as those who don't cheat. Same as in years past. When we KNOW a trainer is a cheat like we do with Baffert, then it's more than reasonable to be suspect of all his horses' performances.
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05-18-2018, 05:35 PM
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#26
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
Yes and no. Worse testing, but far worse drugs too. Arsenic tonics, for example. Ok. Not sure how that's supposed to help. EPO, cobalt, we know how that truly works to make a horse keep right on rolling.
There are cheats today as well as those who don't cheat. Same as in years past. When we KNOW a trainer is a cheat like we do with Baffert, then it's more than reasonable to be suspect of all his horses' performances.
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I don't want to be lumped in with that assumption. Nothing would surprise me either way with any trainer these days.
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05-18-2018, 06:37 PM
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#27
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
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CITATION won 27 of 29 races as a two and three year-old combined.
19 of 20 in his THREE YO year alone!
No one has ever come close to that. Not even Man o' War!
He far exceeded Secretariat, who won 16 of 21 at two and three combined.
Last edited by Denny; 05-18-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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05-18-2018, 06:41 PM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
CITATION won 27 of 29 races as a two and three year-old combined.
19 of 20 in his THREE YO year alone!
No one has ever come close to that. Not even Man o' War!
He far exceeded Secretariat, who won 16 of 21 at two and three combined.
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Citation's five year old season is actually underrated too
He set a world record in the mile and would have set two other world records and one track record except he got beat by Noor (one time by a nose).
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05-18-2018, 06:54 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
CITATION won 27 of 29 races as a two and three year-old combined.
19 of 20 in his THREE YO year alone!
No one has ever come close to that. Not even Man o' War!
He far exceeded Secretariat, who won 16 of 21 at two and three combined.
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Citation's owner wanted have the first horse in history to win one million dollars.. and ran him as such, imagine if he would have been a little more patient what the career would have looked like..
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05-18-2018, 07:35 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB@BP
Its too bad what happened to him after Dubai, his 4 race streak were as good as I seen from a horse in 25 years. Fast, legit, over came trouble. Those 4 wins were not hype.
When he was right he dusted a horse like Gun Runner, not once, but twice. Ran down a completely loose California Chrome. Yea.
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Arrogate, Gun Runner, and California Chrome were the best and most consistent of a thoroughly bad group of American older horses over the past 3 seasons.
These horses routinely beat up on horses like Breaking Lucky (1 for 14 lifetime on dirt), Neolithic (non-stakes winner eligible for NW3X), Hoppertunity (a 7yo), Keen Ice (3 for 24 lifetime), Mubtaahij (1 for his last 16), and Win The Space (winless in 2 years, 0 for last 11), and Dortmund (winless since 2015).
Arrogate defeated Gun Runner while that one was clearly a cut below his peak and his stamina suspect. Exaggerator blitzed Gun Runner a couple of times, too, in 2016. In fact Gun Runner's fastest efforts were his final 2 career starts (probably had more left in the tank, should have stayed in training).
California Chrome was never a fast horse and arguably his career was resurrected by the sheer fact that he stayed in training while stronger rivals (Shared Belief) fell by the wayside. The ride he got in the 2016 BC Classic was criminal. If I didn't know any better, I'd say Espinoza got his breeding right to American Pharoah personally from Baffert in the paddock right before the race. From the 5/8 pole to the 1/4 pole he did nothing but look around for Arrogate while floating himself wide.
Gun Runner suddenly got good when he started getting sent to the lead in relatively paceless races in short fields. He had to out-duel Collected a couple of times who was decent for about 4 races, faced claimers in a pair of his stakes wins, and hit the 110+ Beyer range a couple of times. Sounds like Collected should be mentioned in the "great" category himself considering those credentials.
Not sure why the Dubai World Cup holds any real significance in terms of historical importance. It is perennially a weak field made up of turf horses, old horses specifically trotted out during the Dubai carnival to fill races, and decent NA starter or two. Arrogate was bumped at the start and wrangled back and because he collars Gun Runner, he's Secretariat. California Chrome has the saddle slip all the way back into bucking bronco territory and he still wins off by open lengths, I guess he's better than Affirmed.
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