Is Winx really the best horse?

[steveb]

Originally Posted by papillon

She runs against males.

She runs and wins from 7f to 10f regularly.

She's a closer, closing into large crowded fields, always going wide.

She has maintained her form for years.

She might not beat Euros, esp since she prefers firm-ish turf, but there is no American turf horse who could beat her, outside of our greatest, and even then she'd be coming at the end, and have an honest chance. There are no Euros with her range. They have sprinters, milers, and stayers. They do not have sprinter-miler-stayers. Just like us.

The person who dismissed her because she's not Frankel, one of the greatest straight turf milers ever (he'd have lost to Goldikova, FWIW, esp on a tight, 2 turn, firm American track), well, yep, compared to him, she's clearly just the Australian Pepper's Pride. My money is on Winx against Frankel at 2 turns at 10f.

Australia is 30 hours from anywhere. Only Goldophin and Coolmore, with their own fleet of specialized planes and runways, travel that far. Winx's connections talked to Black Cavier's connections, who told them the ship was very hard on her. They also are not wealthy. They aren't 200 Chinese Billionaires.

Australians care about Australian races most. Doesn't matter what we think of her, in Australia she is in the realm of Phar Lap.

I'll take Winx over a 6 race "phenom" any day. Racing needs Winxes. 26 wins isn't just sub-par competition, it is her ability to make her own luck.

that's a great post, although i would think winx owners would be wealthy now if they were not before!

and further, why would she need to travel when there is so much more money to be won in australia.

[whisperlunch]

Papillon, fantastic reply. Wow

Let’s send over a couple of our best horses to the outback to beat her ass. 😂

[TheGarMan]

In fairness:

The horse doesn't know that she has not raced in Europe.

The horse doesn't even know she did not race in the United States.

All the horse knows is that she did run down every single foe it had in her sights for 26 races....

That is saying something.

How many US horses even compete in 20 races? 25 races? Let alone win them all?

A quick estimation says she probably beat 250- 275 horses during "the streak"

Someday very soon, she will get clipped at the wire, and she, the streak, and her legacy will be left to the annals of time.

And that's good enough for me.

[GMB@BP]

The question was is she the best horse, her amazing win streak is a great accomplishment but to be the best you have to beat the best, of which she has never done. She beat a couple good horses on her home turf but I think she would have several losses had she competed in the best races in Europe and the USA.

Maybe the title of the thread should something different, people are not really addressing the question.

[woodbinepmi]

Originally Posted by whisperlunch

Papillon, fantastic reply. Wow

Let’s send over a couple of our best horses to the outback to beat her ass. ��

Please give me the names of the horses here in the States that could fly to the other side of the world that could beat her on the grass going 1,200 to 1,400 metres.

[whisperlunch]

Woodbine are you serious ? First I was joking. My point was if they won’t send her to the Breeders Cup then let’s send a couple of our best to race her. To see if she’s really the best. How far is 1200 -1400 meters is that a mile ish ?


I think the winx is unbelievable.

But I’d like to see where she stands versus US horses.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtVTFb9Tf7k

Boy was a monster...nice video

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by whisperlunch

But I’d like to see where she stands versus US horses.

I'd like to see where U.S. horses stand in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by TheGarMan

How many US horses even compete in 20 races? 25 races? Let alone win them all?

.....and seemingly getting better at age 6?



We have 2 Triple Crown winners now who can't even race past the same year they won their TC in. At 3 years old they are finished.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by clicknow

I'd like to see where U.S. horses stand in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe

Lets see. Nowhere. Soft French Turf in October just before the BC.

wont happen anytime soon.

Allan

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

The question was is she the best horse, her amazing win streak is a great accomplishment but to be the best you have to beat the best, of which she has never done. She beat a couple good horses on her home turf but I think she would have several losses had she competed in the best races in Europe and the USA.

Maybe the title of the thread should something different, people are not really addressing the question.

Oh Really?
So Winx hasn’t’ beat much?!

How about Highland Reel for starters?
27 Starts – 10 Wins (7 GR1’s) – 6 Placings ( 4 GR1’s) – 3 Shows (All GR1)
Owner(s):
Michael B. Tabor - Mrs. John 'Susan' Magnier - Derrick Smith -
Trainer: Aidan P. O'Brien
Bred:
(IRL) by Hveger Syndicate
Pedigree: Galileo - Hveger by Danehill

  
Pedigree |  Siblings |  Progeny
 
Galileo
Sadler's Wells
Northern Dancer

		Fairy Bridge

	Urban Sea
Miswaki

		Allegretta

Hveger
Danehill
Danzig

		Razyana

	Circles Of Gold
Marscay

		Olympic Aim 

Highland Reel - Race Results & Past Performances

  
 	12/10/17-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Sha	1 1/2m	T	Hong Kong Vase-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Talismanic	Tosen Basil	2:26.23
 	11/04/17-R11	Highland Reel	3rd	Dmr	1 1/2m	T	Breeders' Cup Turf-G1	3+	Talismanic	Beach Patrol	Highland Reel	2:26.19
 	10/21/17-R5	Highland Reel	3rd	Asc	1 1/4 m	T	Champion Stakes-G1	3+	Cracksman	Poet's Word	Highland Reel	2:11.75
 	07/29/17-R4	Highland Reel	4th	Asc	1 1/2m	T	King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1	3+	Enable	Ulysses	Idaho	2:36.22
 	06/21/17-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Asc	1 1/4 m	T	Prince of Wales's Stakes-G1	4+	Highland Reel	Decorated Knight	Ulysses	2:05.04
 	06/02/17-R3	Highland Reel	1st	Eps	1 1/2m	T	Coronation Cup-G1	4+	Highland Reel	Frontiersman	Hawkbill	2:33.34
 	03/25/17-R8	Highland Reel	7th	Mey	1 1/2m	T	Dubai Sheema Classic-G1	3+	Jack Hobbs	Seventh Heaven	Postponed	2:32.39
 	12/11/16-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Sha	1 1/2m	T	Hong Kong Vase-G1	3+	Satono Crown	Highland Reel	One Foot In Heaven	2:26.22
 	11/05/16-R9	Highland Reel	1st	SA	1 1/2m	T	Breeders' Cup Turf-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Flintshire	Found	2:23.00
 	10/02/16-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Cha	1 1/2m	T	Prix De l'Arc de Triomphe-G1	3+	Found	Highland Reel	Order Of St George	2:23.61
 	09/10/16-R7	Highland Reel	7th	Leo	1 1/4 m	T	Irish Champion Stakes-G1	3+	Almanzor	Found	Minding	2:08.93
 	08/17/16-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Yor	1 5/16 m	T	Juddmonte International-G1	3+	Postponed	Highland Reel	Mutakayyef	2:06.58
 	07/23/16-R5	Highland Reel	1st	Asc	1 1/2m	T	King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Wings Of Desire	Dartmouth	2:28.97
 	06/18/16-R3	Highland Reel	2nd	Asc	1 1/2m	T	Hardwicke Stakes-G2	4+	Dartmouth	Highland Reel	Almodovar	2:32.06
 	04/24/16-R8	Highland Reel	8th	Sha	1 1/4 m	T	Audemars Piguet QE II Cup-G1	3+	Werther	Military Attack	Blazing Speed	2:01.32
 	03/26/16-R8	Highland Reel	4th	Mey	1 1/2m	T	Dubai Sheema Classic-G1	3+	Postponed	Duramente	Last Impact	2:26.97
 	12/13/15-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Sha	1 1/2m	T	Hong Kong Vase-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Flintshire	Dariyan	2:28.43
 	10/24/15-R9	Highland Reel	3rd	Moo	1 1/4 m	T	Cox Plate-G1	3+	Winx	Criterion	Highland Reel	2:02.98
 	09/12/15-R5	Highland Reel	5th	Leo	1 1/4 m	T	Irish Champion Stakes-G1	3+	Golden Horn	Found	Free Eagle	2:05.41
 	08/15/15-R8	Highland Reel	1st	AP	1 1/4 m	T	Secretariat Stakes-G1	3	Highland Reel	Closing Bell	Force the Pass	2:02.26
 	07/29/15-R2	Highland Reel	1st	Goo	1 1/2m	T	Gordon Stakes-G3	3	Highland Reel	Scottish	California Disegno	2:34.94
 	06/27/15-R7	Highland Reel	5th	Cur	1 1/2m	T	Irish Derby-G1	3	Jack Hobbs	Storm The Stars	Giovanni Canaletto	2:34.93
 	05/31/15-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Cha	1 5/16 m	T	Prix Du Jockey Club-G1	3	New Bay	Highland Reel	Green Dispatch	2:05.69
 	05/10/15-R4	Highland Reel	6th	PLong	1 mile	T	Poule d'Essai des Poulains-G1	3	Make Believe	New Bay	Mr Owen	1:36.85
 	07/30/14-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Goo	7 f	T	Vintage Stakes-G2	2	Highland Reel	Tupi	Room Key	1:26.81
 	07/01/14-R1	Highland Reel	1st	Gow	1 mile	T	Maiden 	2	Highland Reel	Taqaseem	Hall Of Fame	1:38.40
 	06/12/14-R2	Highland Reel	2nd	Leo	7 f	T	Maiden 	2	Tombelaine	Highland Reel	Crescent 	1:31.48

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Nitro

Oh Really?
So Winx hasn’t’ beat much?!

How about Highland Reel for starters?
27 Starts – 10 Wins (7 GR1’s) – 6 Placings ( 4 GR1’s) – 3 Shows (All GR1)
Owner(s):
Michael B. Tabor - Mrs. John 'Susan' Magnier - Derrick Smith -
Trainer: Aidan P. O'Brien
Bred:
(IRL) by Hveger Syndicate
Pedigree: Galileo - Hveger by Danehill

  
Pedigree |  Siblings |  Progeny
 
Galileo
Sadler's Wells
Northern Dancer

		Fairy Bridge

	Urban Sea
Miswaki

		Allegretta

Hveger
Danehill
Danzig

		Razyana

	Circles Of Gold
Marscay

		Olympic Aim 

Highland Reel - Race Results & Past Performances

  
 	12/10/17-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Sha	1 1/2m	T	Hong Kong Vase-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Talismanic	Tosen Basil	2:26.23
 	11/04/17-R11	Highland Reel	3rd	Dmr	1 1/2m	T	Breeders' Cup Turf-G1	3+	Talismanic	Beach Patrol	Highland Reel	2:26.19
 	10/21/17-R5	Highland Reel	3rd	Asc	1 1/4 m	T	Champion Stakes-G1	3+	Cracksman	Poet's Word	Highland Reel	2:11.75
 	07/29/17-R4	Highland Reel	4th	Asc	1 1/2m	T	King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1	3+	Enable	Ulysses	Idaho	2:36.22
 	06/21/17-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Asc	1 1/4 m	T	Prince of Wales's Stakes-G1	4+	Highland Reel	Decorated Knight	Ulysses	2:05.04
 	06/02/17-R3	Highland Reel	1st	Eps	1 1/2m	T	Coronation Cup-G1	4+	Highland Reel	Frontiersman	Hawkbill	2:33.34
 	03/25/17-R8	Highland Reel	7th	Mey	1 1/2m	T	Dubai Sheema Classic-G1	3+	Jack Hobbs	Seventh Heaven	Postponed	2:32.39
 	12/11/16-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Sha	1 1/2m	T	Hong Kong Vase-G1	3+	Satono Crown	Highland Reel	One Foot In Heaven	2:26.22
 	11/05/16-R9	Highland Reel	1st	SA	1 1/2m	T	Breeders' Cup Turf-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Flintshire	Found	2:23.00
 	10/02/16-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Cha	1 1/2m	T	Prix De l'Arc de Triomphe-G1	3+	Found	Highland Reel	Order Of St George	2:23.61
 	09/10/16-R7	Highland Reel	7th	Leo	1 1/4 m	T	Irish Champion Stakes-G1	3+	Almanzor	Found	Minding	2:08.93
 	08/17/16-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Yor	1 5/16 m	T	Juddmonte International-G1	3+	Postponed	Highland Reel	Mutakayyef	2:06.58
 	07/23/16-R5	Highland Reel	1st	Asc	1 1/2m	T	King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Wings Of Desire	Dartmouth	2:28.97
 	06/18/16-R3	Highland Reel	2nd	Asc	1 1/2m	T	Hardwicke Stakes-G2	4+	Dartmouth	Highland Reel	Almodovar	2:32.06
 	04/24/16-R8	Highland Reel	8th	Sha	1 1/4 m	T	Audemars Piguet QE II Cup-G1	3+	Werther	Military Attack	Blazing Speed	2:01.32
 	03/26/16-R8	Highland Reel	4th	Mey	1 1/2m	T	Dubai Sheema Classic-G1	3+	Postponed	Duramente	Last Impact	2:26.97
 	12/13/15-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Sha	1 1/2m	T	Hong Kong Vase-G1	3+	Highland Reel	Flintshire	Dariyan	2:28.43
 	10/24/15-R9	Highland Reel	3rd	Moo	1 1/4 m	T	Cox Plate-G1	3+	Winx	Criterion	Highland Reel	2:02.98
 	09/12/15-R5	Highland Reel	5th	Leo	1 1/4 m	T	Irish Champion Stakes-G1	3+	Golden Horn	Found	Free Eagle	2:05.41
 	08/15/15-R8	Highland Reel	1st	AP	1 1/4 m	T	Secretariat Stakes-G1	3	Highland Reel	Closing Bell	Force the Pass	2:02.26
 	07/29/15-R2	Highland Reel	1st	Goo	1 1/2m	T	Gordon Stakes-G3	3	Highland Reel	Scottish	California Disegno	2:34.94
 	06/27/15-R7	Highland Reel	5th	Cur	1 1/2m	T	Irish Derby-G1	3	Jack Hobbs	Storm The Stars	Giovanni Canaletto	2:34.93
 	05/31/15-R4	Highland Reel	2nd	Cha	1 5/16 m	T	Prix Du Jockey Club-G1	3	New Bay	Highland Reel	Green Dispatch	2:05.69
 	05/10/15-R4	Highland Reel	6th	PLong	1 mile	T	Poule d'Essai des Poulains-G1	3	Make Believe	New Bay	Mr Owen	1:36.85
 	07/30/14-R4	Highland Reel	1st	Goo	7 f	T	Vintage Stakes-G2	2	Highland Reel	Tupi	Room Key	1:26.81
 	07/01/14-R1	Highland Reel	1st	Gow	1 mile	T	Maiden 	2	Highland Reel	Taqaseem	Hall Of Fame	1:38.40
 	06/12/14-R2	Highland Reel	2nd	Leo	7 f	T	Maiden 	2	Tombelaine	Highland Reel	Crescent 	1:31.48

That is one, can you give me the others, hence the use of the word "couple" which means approximately 2.

Good grief, sorry to upset the pretty pony club.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

The “great” who ducked the derby and the arc.

Allan

And used a stablemate to aid his runs.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by TheGarMan

In fairness:

The horse doesn't know that she has not raced in Europe.

The horse doesn't even know she did not race in the United States.

All the horse knows is that she did run down every single foe it had in her sights for 26 races....

That is saying something.

How many US horses even compete in 20 races? 25 races? Let alone win them all?

A quick estimation says she probably beat 250- 275 horses during "the streak"

Someday very soon, she will get clipped at the wire, and she, the streak, and her legacy will be left to the annals of time.

And that's good enough for me.

I’ve never understood “the horse didn’t know” comments. What does it matter if the horse did or didn’t know?

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Nitro

Oh Really?
So Winx hasn’t’ beat much?!

How about Highland Reel for starters?

You mean Highland Reel, who 8 U.S. horses couldn't get past in the BC Turf?
The same horse our Belmont winner couldn't get past in the Secretariat Stakes?

Highland Reel w/27 starts in 7 countries on 4 continents with 7 G1 victories who has flown 111,846 miles in his career from Ireland to other places for races?

Naw. Winx hasn't beat much. She needs to prove herself!