Clean races or low takeout

[cj]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Side question - Why are Trifectas and other exotics typically 5-7% higher takeout, even @ SRU Hypothetical Downs?

Is there some increased cost to all that heavy number crunching?

Maybe there is some reason, and I'll have an ah-ha moment, but it seems anti-player, at least on the surface.

Since the advent of exotics, it has "always been that way". It think it goes back to thinking people won't notice as much.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by cj

Since the advent of exotics, it has "always been that way". It think it goes back to thinking people won't notice as much.

yikes, that is kind of what I had suspected...

[AndyC]

To Thaskalos Re: #21

You are taking a very narrow view of the racing game. A viewpoint of a serious gambler who plays to win and not for pure recreation. Of course you are going to view the alternatives as not Ferrari-like. You are not attracted to the glitz of the casinos that seem to be built on every Indian reservation available. You are not attracted to the availability of sports betting on the internet that many are despite its illegal status. That may not represent competition to you but from a business standpoint it is certainly competition to the tracks.

The fact is most gamblers aren't looking to make a living they just want the action. With casino games, poker, and sports betting the learning curve is short and just about anybody can obtain enough knowledge to feel comfortable playing the games. The same cannot be said for racing.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Look at SRU's two options in this thread...and THEN tell me which is more impossible. A 10% takeout is not only impossible; it's UNTHINKABLE.

Of course it is unthinkable in a pari-mutuel environment. Is there a dumber system of betting whereby a bettor gets penalized for betting more?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by AndyC

To Thaskalos Re: #21

You are taking a very narrow view of the racing game. A viewpoint of a serious gambler who plays to win and not for pure recreation. Of course you are going to view the alternatives as not Ferrari-like. You are not attracted to the glitz of the casinos that seem to be built on every Indian reservation available. You are not attracted to the availability of sports betting on the internet that many are despite its illegal status. That may not represent competition to you but from a business standpoint it is certainly competition to the tracks.

The fact is most gamblers aren't looking to make a living they just want the action. With casino games, poker, and sports betting the learning curve is short and just about anybody can obtain enough knowledge to feel comfortable playing the games. The same cannot be said for racing.

I understand what you are saying, Andy...but the game isn't losing just the "hobbyists"; it's losing players like ME, as well. And when guys like ME get disgusted with this game...then there is a real problem.

An industry should FIGHT for customers like me.

[cj]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Of course it is unthinkable in a pari-mutuel environment. Is there a dumber system of betting whereby a bettor gets penalized for betting more?

Don't bookmakers do the same thing? They will allow you to bet so much at one line, then change it, allow more, and so on? I'm not saying it is the same as parimutuel, but you can't just bet what you want and keep the same price.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Side question - Why are Trifectas and other exotics typically 5-7% higher takeout, even @ SRU Hypothetical Downs?

Is there some increased cost to all that heavy number crunching?

Maybe there is some reason, and I'll have an ah-ha moment, but it seems anti-player, at least on the surface.

I just scaled the takeouts down to somewhat align with what the industry currently charges. Why exotics takeouts are larger? Not sure, that's a good question.

[Stillriledup]

I have to say i almost didn't pose this question because i thought "who in their right mind is going to say clean racing over takeout" but i'm glad i did, sheds new light on what we're all thinking is the most important.

Question for the people who said clean racing.

Is there a point where you would change your mind? What if all takeouts were 1% across the board at all tracks, would you still vote clean racing? What about 3%? 5%? Where's the cutoff where you would switch.

Same question for those who said takeout....at what point would you vote clean racing? What if all takeouts were only lowered 1% or 1/2%? Would you still vote takeout? Where's YOUR cutoff. In my example i lowered takeouts pretty substantially, but if they only got lowered a point or two, would that change your mind?

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by cj

Don't bookmakers do the same thing? They will allow you to bet so much at one line, then change it, allow more, and so on? I'm not saying it is the same as parimutuel, but you can't just bet what you want and keep the same price.

Bookmakers will at times reduce your price after so much is bet, but they only reduce your price for the new bet and not the initial bet. On an exchange you can take as much as what is offered. But in either event you KNOW what your price is and you make decisions accordingly.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

I have to say i almost didn't pose this question because i thought "who in their right mind is going to say clean racing over takeout" but i'm glad i did, sheds new light on what we're all thinking is the most important.

Question for the people who said clean racing.

Is there a point where you would change your mind? What if all takeouts were 1% across the board at all tracks, would you still vote clean racing? What about 3%? 5%? Where's the cutoff where you would switch.

Same question for those who said takeout....at what point would you vote clean racing? What if all takeouts were only lowered 1% or 1/2%? Would you still vote takeout? Where's YOUR cutoff. In my example i lowered takeouts pretty substantially, but if they only got lowered a point or two, would that change your mind?

Maybe 25 years ago before internet betting I would have answered clean racing. Today with the sharks fighting the whales in the mutuel pools the current take-out is a far tougher barrier to get over.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

I just scaled the takeouts down to somewhat align with what the industry currently charges. Why exotics takeouts are larger? Not sure, that's a good question.

I asked this question many years ago to management. The answer I got was that because of the higher payoffs, they felt it was justified.

That's code for because we want too. There is no cost variable to my knowledge that would drive the production cost of a triple or super race vs. an exacta race.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Side question - Why are Trifectas and other exotics typically 5-7% higher takeout, even @ SRU Hypothetical Downs?

Is there some increased cost to all that heavy number crunching?

Maybe there is some reason, and I'll have an ah-ha moment, but it seems anti-player, at least on the surface.

I think to properly analyze takeouts you have to figure the effective takeout. To me effective takeout is the stated rate divided by the percentage of losing tickets. Easy example: Win takeout is 20%, winning horse had 40% of the pool bet on it leaving 60% bet on the losers. Effective rate 20/60 = 33%

In the example the winning horse would have paid $4.00 to win with the 20% takeout and $5.00 with no takeout. So with no takeout the bettor would have won $3 and with takeout he would win $2. The bettor took a 33% haircut on his winnings and not just a 20% bite.

Looking at the exotics the numerator of the equation is higher but the denominator is usually much higher resulting in an effective takeout difference not nearly as high as just comparing the stated rates.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

I asked this question many years ago to management. The answer I got was that because of the higher payoffs, they felt it was justified.

That's code for because we want too. There is no cost variable to my knowledge that would drive the production cost of a triple or super race vs. an exacta race.

This is a good point, there's no "Added cost' from a labor or technology standpoint that can justify the price increase. "Because we want to" or "because we can" isn't good enough in a world where people have options. You didnt have nearly as many options in 1970 and 1980, there were no cell phones or internet so tracks were able to get away with "take it or leave it".

Not true today and yet, they haven't changed their model at all.

[BlueShoe]

Lowered takeout, hands down for this old player. In the real world of the races we wager on, how often is there cheating, and how often does it involve us, 10-20% of the time?? Increased takeout hits us 100% when we bet.

[rastajenk]

I'd say "cheating" occurs in less than 1% of the races, and that includes overages of legal meds.

Question for the integritists: At what point would you be convinced that the game is finally clean enough for your tastebuds?