Clean races or low takeout

[olddaddy]

I have gotten so used to the chicanery in the game that I dont know if I could even play a clean game. The way I handicap relies around angles of a dirty game. I dont know if I would have the time or resources to handicap a clean game. All that being said, Ill vote for a clean game, I want this game that I have played for 50 years to be around for future generations.

[ALostTexan]

Clean racing for me.

[EMD4ME]

Is option A, a clean game meant to be no drugs? Or no drugs and everyone tries all the time (not talking about horses prepping, talking about complete stiff jobs). If it's both, then I vote clean game.

However, like CJ and many others , I've learned to know who's not trying very early in my horse years. So just a takeout reduction would be nice.

Example: race 1 at AQU Today. Cannizzo's horse was a complete no go at PRX last time. Cannizzo has 7 wins in the last 90 days, 4 with a switch to Rosario. Plus, this horse worked in company with last Friday's 85 Beyer dominant winner who paid 27 bucks with a switch to Rosario. If you watch the replay of this horse at Prx, he was choked and wanted to no part early. He chased in a fast second quarter (behind a loose wire to winner) and chased outside the rail moving chalk (who ended up 2nd). Knowing Cannizzo's recent M.O. I would've never bet this horse in his last start as it was an obvious prep.

That horse will be live today. As long as the rail isn't dead, he should win. So, in situations like this, just give me the lower takeout.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If cheating is "merely a factor in the handicapping process"...then why is the game in the shape that it currently finds itself? Why have the mutuel pools tumbled nationwide? Have you noticed a great increase in the takeouts in recent years...is that why so many of our brethren have lost interest in this game? Or do you suppose that the horseplayers have fled our game for the greener pastures that the casinos have to offer them...which is what the tracks would have us believe?

I'll tell you what I think:

Cheating has NEVER been as widespread as it is right now...but there is a great cover-up in place, to protect the "integrity" of the game. Ask your friend Andy Beyer, if you don't believe me. And the proliferation of these legal and illegal drugs is the main reason for the tiny fields that we are witnessing today. If a sustained effort isn't made soon to deal with the cheating element in this game...then the six-horse field will be considered to be a "full field" in a few years' time.

And that's a game that no one would touch...even with a 12% takeout.

Cheating has nothing to do with the state of the game. When racing was in its prime cheating was rampant. People would like to pin the blame for the decline of racing to cheating but they are just flat wrong.

Racing's decline can be directly attributed to the ever increasing availability of other forms of gambling. To people new to gambling, racing is like driving a VW Bug while other available gambling is like driving a Ferrari. Attempts to make racing more competitive has been fruitless due to a broken business model along with entrenched factions who steadfastly cling to the past.

I am all for integrity and a clean game but if racing was squeaky clean it would still not be competitive.

[Track Phantom]

Very good question. For me, a clean game is far, far above low takeout. I believe good players can make up the takeout difference playing into a clean game.

In addition, I'd just enjoy following the game more if I truly believed in the training accomplishments.

Finally, I'd love to see what Jamie Ness would do next if the game were clean. I think we know what he wouldn't be doing.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Cheating has nothing to do with the state of the game. When racing was in its prime cheating was rampant. People would like to pin the blame for the decline of racing to cheating but they are just flat wrong.

Racing's decline can be directly attributed to the ever increasing availability of other forms of gambling. To people new to gambling, racing is like driving a VW Bug while other available gambling is like driving a Ferrari. Attempts to make racing more competitive has been fruitless due to a broken business model along with entrenched factions who steadfastly cling to the past.

I am all for integrity and a clean game but if racing was squeaky clean it would still not be competitive.

You lose me when you say that "horse racing is like driving a VW Bug, while other available gambling is like driving a Ferrari". What other form of gambling do you see out there that you would compare to a "Ferrari"? Poker is the only beatable game legally offered in this country...and the "Turbo" version of it is currently illegal. The live version of poker was DEAD in this country...and the internet was what gave poker the resurrection that it needed. Without the online version, poker is so freaking boring that it would more accurately be compared to a horse-wagon than a Ferrari. Sports betting is illegal nationwide...and people are scared to death to bet it on the internet -- for fear of not getting paid. Where is the "Ferrari" of gambling...the slot machines? Mindlessly pulling a handle waiting to get paid? You must be kidding me. Is it the lottery...with its 50% takeout? The casinos are more hostile to card counters than the racetracks are to handicappers...so we know that the horseplayers are not counting cards...so, what are they doing now that they are not playing horses? Are they shooting craps?

Our game is suffering not because it cannot attract new players; it's suffering because it can't even hold on to the players that it currently has. Confirmed, life-long horseplayers are fleeing this game in droves...and it isn't because they hate driving the VW Bug. Nor are these players leaving because of the riches promised to them by the casinos. They are leaving because they are disgusted with the current state of the game...and who could blame them? What clear-thinking gambler could possibly be attracted to the version of this game which is being put on display from Monday to Thursday at racetracks throughout the country? Is this the game that we all fell in love with? What does staying competitive with other gambling venues have to do with the total degradation of our own game? The game's "uncompetitiveness" with other gambling games is what is responsible for the disgraceful product that we see on display from Monday to Thursday at every track in the land? Where are all the horses...and why aren't they racing?

I'll tell you what the problem is...IMO:

These unscrupulous trainers insist on keeping the horses running in spite of their injuries...and they can only accomplish this through pain-killing drugs. I myself have heard trainers talking about giving a horse illegal drugs in order to squeeze another good race or two from the poor animal, after which -- in trainer vernacular -- the horse is "shot". He is damaged goods, never to be heard from again. You say that the cheating was rampant during the game's most popular stage...and that's true. But the horses were still relatively sound...and they were running on a regular basis. Today's drugs are so detrimental to the horse's well-being...that a 30-day layoff isn't even considered a layoff anymore. "Training tactics have changed"...people say. "Bullshit"...I say. It's the DRUGS that have changed. Yes...the number of foals have declined...but this doesn't explain all our problems. It doesn't tell us why the available horses cannot make their expected number of starts each year.

When run right, this is the best gambling game in existence...and I say this having had considerable experience playing every gambling game there is. Nothing compares with horse racing...in generating excitement, intellectual stimulation, and ROI. The horseplayers who have left it didn't do so because the game wasn't "competitive" with other gambling games; they fled because they got disgusted with the game that they loved...and I can't blame them.

Because when this game is run wrong, as it is now...it becomes a gambler's worst nightmare.

[cj]

People will always try to cheat when money is involved, which is why I said takeout. A takeout reduction is concrete, it can be measured. "Clean racing" is nothing but a concept with little chance of actually becoming real...ever.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by cj

People will always try to cheat when money is involved, which is why I said takeout. A takeout reduction is concrete, it can be measured. "Clean racing" is nothing but a concept with little chance of actually becoming real...ever.

A reduced takeout is an impossibility as well. The takeouts have only one way to go...and that's UP. How else is the purse structure to be maintained...when the mutual pools are in constant decline? And what do you think will happen when the casino money dries up? Do you seriously think that the TRAINERS will take the pay-cut?

Both of SRU's suggestions were impossibilities...and I picked the one which I felt was the biggest problem.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by cj

People will always try to cheat when money is involved, which is why I said takeout. A takeout reduction is concrete, it can be measured. "Clean racing" is nothing but a concept with little chance of actually becoming real...ever.

CJ, what about Hong Kong? Don't you believe it's clean? If not, explain how you know Sha Tin is not up to your standard of "clean racing".

[cj]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

CJ, what about Hong Kong? Don't you believe it's clean? If not, explain how you know Sha Tin is not up to your standard of "clean racing".

I don't bet Hong Kong or know enough about it to comment.

[cj]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

A reduced takeout is an impossibility as well. The takeouts have only one way to go...and that's UP. How else is the purse structure to be maintained...when the mutual pools are in constant decline? And what do you think will happen when the casino money dries up? Do you seriously think that the TRAINERS will take the pay-cut?

Both of SRU's suggestions were impossibilities...and I picked the one which I felt was the biggest problem.

Takeout has been reduced, so it is possible. I'm assuming the above is sarcasm.

[magwell]

Originally Posted by cj

People will always try to cheat when money is involved, which is why I said takeout. A takeout reduction is concrete, it can be measured. "Clean racing" is nothing but a concept with little chance of actually becoming real...ever.

Exactly right, make the takeout 12% on all bets (no rebates) and the players might have a chance to win, that would bring new blood to the game and bring back the ones that have become disenchanted........

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by cj

Takeout has been reduced, so it is possible. I'm assuming the above is sarcasm.

Look at SRU's two options in this thread...and THEN tell me which is more impossible. A 10% takeout is not only impossible; it's UNTHINKABLE.

[jahura2]

Lower takeout. been dealing with the "unclean" aspect for years and have learned to live with it.
Lower takeout would be a "gift horse".....pardon the pun.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

2) WPS takeouts at all tracks slashed to 10%, exas and DDs 12.5% and anything 3 or more (tris, pick 4s etc) 15%. but nothing changes as far as #1 goes.

Side question - Why are Trifectas and other exotics typically 5-7% higher takeout, even @ SRU Hypothetical Downs?

Is there some increased cost to all that heavy number crunching?

Maybe there is some reason, and I'll have an ah-ha moment, but it seems anti-player, at least on the surface.