Dallas Stewart Does It Again With Tale of Verve

[Bob S.]

Dallas Stewart has done a great job over the last few years of getting longshot horses to surprise almost everyone in Triple Crown races. He did it again yesterday with Tale of Verve.

http://regalbloodlines.com/2015/05/1...mance-profile/

[tanner12oz]

Met him on Friday...he was just walking around the first floor of the grandstand

[holmmd]

As much as I like Dallas Stewart, I think TOV's performance from yesterday had a lot to do with AP running the other contenders into the ground. TOV was the only one that got to sit back, relax and get into stride. The others were hustling trying to keep up. At least that's the way I saw it. That plus the monsoon and it appears he relished the slop where others like Firing Line really struggled.

I'm glad TOV is going to Belmont. Hopefully he'll take some cash from a lot of folks but he won't be getting any of mine.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by holmmd

As much as I like Dallas Stewart, I think TOV's performance from yesterday had a lot to do with AP running the other contenders into the ground. TOV was the only one that got to sit back, relax and get into stride. The others were hustling trying to keep up. At least that's the way I saw it. That plus the monsoon and it appears he relished the slop where others like Firing Line really struggled.

I'm glad TOV is going to Belmont. Hopefully he'll take some cash from a lot of folks but he won't be getting any of mine.

Tale of Verve benefited from the slop and Mr. Z pushing American Pharoah, otherwise the result would be different.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tale of Verve, of ANY HORSE in the world, looked like THE ONE who WITHOUT A DOUBT (in the words of the Lukas bashers) DID NOT BELONG in the Preakness.

I wouldn't have bet a dime on this horse with YOUR MONEY or anyone else's.

So, I don't ever want to hear again the nonsense some post on here about horses who "should be entered elsewhere" or "who don't belong in this race."

ESPECIALLY horses trained by Lukas or one of his disciples.

Thus ends this rant.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Tale of Verve benefited from the slop and Mr. Z pushing American Pharoah, otherwise the result would be different.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.......I'm still keeping the cash...

[depalma113]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Tale of Verve, of ANY HORSE in the world, looked like THE ONE who WITHOUT A DOUBT (in the words of the Lukas bashers) DID NOT BELONG in the Preakness.

I wouldn't have bet a dime on this horse with YOUR MONEY or anyone else's.

So, I don't ever want to hear again the nonsense some post on here about horses who "should be entered elsewhere" or "who don't belong in this race."

ESPECIALLY horses trained by Lukas or one of his disciples.

Thus ends this rant.

In an article on the Bloodhorse about Derby enties, I was blasted because I didn't share anyone's opinion that Tale of Verve didn't belong in the Derby. His connections followed the rules. If he got in he deserved it as much as any other. The pretty pony people vilified me for it. They were all quiet on Saturday night.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Tale of Verve, of ANY HORSE in the world, looked like THE ONE who WITHOUT A DOUBT (in the words of the Lukas bashers) DID NOT BELONG in the Preakness.

I wouldn't have bet a dime on this horse with YOUR MONEY or anyone else's.

So, I don't ever want to hear again the nonsense some post on here about horses who "should be entered elsewhere" or "who don't belong in this race."

ESPECIALLY horses trained by Lukas or one of his disciples.

Thus ends this rant.

Nobody at this site uses the word "bashers" more than you do. You know, just saying.

As far as bashing goes, there is very little bashing at this site, most of the discussions are professional, well thought out and if someone needs to get "called out" they get called out, to me, that's not bashing.

Let me try and explain "entering badly" and what it means. In Lukases career, he's trained thousands of horses. Now, if you enter every horse you train in the highest class you could possibly enter in, you are going to get some upsets and some winners no doubt. Lukas has trained more quality horses with great pedigrees than almost everyone combined, so he's certainly had his share of pricey bloodstock to put the saddle on.

Now, it seems that the argument you are making (and even CJ echoed this in the Mr Z thread) is that because Lukas has had some longshot winners in big races and in races where it appeared like the horse 'didnt belong' it should be ok to just enter in the highest spot possible and nobody should say a word about it because once upon a time he had a winner at a big price in a big race.

Here's what many of us are talking about and asking. If you are D Wayne Lukas, an all time great hall of fame trainer, why do you (if you're him) need to just enter every horse you train in the highest class without sufficient rest many times when you are supposed to know when to pull back the reigns and enter somewhere else or maybe freshen the horse up and have an actual plan (i know, novel concept) ? Anyone can ask the question "when's the next grade 1 race" and then place the entry, but because he's supposed to know more than me or you or any of us about his own horses, why is he entering as if he knows nothing about his horses? Why not enter Mr Z in a cupcake race, get a win at 4-5 and THEN come back to the Grade 1s? Is that a terrible strategy?

If he's not entering horses and tailoring the entry to maximize that horse to its own specific racing needs, it comes across like he's not really putting the horse first. Raybo asked a few questions about confidence in horses and essentially said that i (me personally) wasn't able to tell if Mr Z "lost confidence" even though he's lost many races in a row now, a couple of trainers who post here (Chad, Ruffian1, etc) said that horses CAN lose confidence if they get their bridle jerked by top competition.

To suggest that Mr Z was "properly entered" because Tale of Verve ran 2nd ignores the fact that Tale of Verve hasn't gotten his head kicked in 8 races in a row, so he was confident and was able to make a run. Mr Z on the other hand COULD HAVE been Tale Of verve but do you know why he wasn't? Because he's gotten his head kicked in and lost confidence. There's very little chance that Tale of Verve is a better horse inherently than Mr Z, there's no way that Tale of Verve could have battled with Dortmund and Firing line in that race at Los AL like Mr Z did, but as time wore on, MR Z started to fizzle and lose his verve (pun intended) and that's why Mr Z wasn't the horse who was charging and finishing 2nd in the Preakness.

Mr Z is all over the place, he's had 13 starts lifetime (before saturday) and raced at 8 different tracks and other than his early career at Saratoga and running 2 races back to back at Oaklawn, he rarely runs two times in a row at the same track and he rarely has the same rider on his back, i don't know how "Awesome" this management is, looks like if MR Z wasn't made out of titanium, he might have been ruined already. The toughness of Mr Z has made his 'management' not look so awful but if you read between the lines, this is clown stuff and most horses won't ever withstand this type of shipping, racing on different tracks, racing way over their heads and racing with NINE rider changes in 9 starts between Sept 6, 2014 to the Derby when he finally had the same jock ride him in back to back starts.

The only time this type of management doesn't get exposed is when the horse is made of granite. I don't know if Z is made of granite, maybe he is and can withstand the beatings he's taking and keep coming back for more, not too many horses can handle this type of campaign.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not even going to bother reading your entire reply. I'll take a page from your notebook by doing such.

You are without a doubt one of the many Lukas bashers on this board.

Mr. Z showed he belonged in the race. You can either admit it and move on, or continue to type out long-ass futile replies to the contrary.

By your definition of "belonging," then NONE OF THE HORSES in the Preakness belonged, except for AP, who won by 7.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Tale of Verve, of ANY HORSE in the world, looked like THE ONE who WITHOUT A DOUBT (in the words of the Lukas bashers) DID NOT BELONG in the Preakness.

I wouldn't have bet a dime on this horse with YOUR MONEY or anyone else's.

So, I don't ever want to hear again the nonsense some post on here about horses who "should be entered elsewhere" or "who don't belong in this race."

ESPECIALLY horses trained by Lukas or one of his disciples.

Thus ends this rant.

No TOV didn't appear to belong, but ended up receiving a dream "mine that bird derby" type set-up that is not likely to be repeated any time soon.

But the main problem with your post is that you're trying to somehow justify Lukas' handling of Mr Z because the lightly raced Tale Of Verve managed to get up for 2nd?

That dog won't hunt. If anything it shows that Stewart knows his horse better than Lukas does his. Stewart and Fipke took a shot and were vindicated. Lukas has been on a quixotic campaign to show that Mr. Z belongs with the big boys and has multiple double digit defeats under all scenarios to show for it. So no, once again Mr. Z didn't belong, his record of speed and fade is all too consistent to think he has the stamina for 9 1/2 furlongs. D Wayne and his devoted disciples are the only ones who can't see that.

TOV took a shot and showed that with a particular setup he does belong and/or is rapidly improving.

There was no scenario that was going to get Mr. Z up for second. Despite all of DWL's talk about how much he worked on Mr Z and how he solved the problem with him ducking in and about how he felt he would really be competitive in the Preakness, the horse has not improved this year. I don't understand why you take such great pains to take the contrary position when the facts are out in the open for all to see. The horse needs class relief or shorter distances or both.

[PaceAdvantage]

The only question that was addressed in all of this nonsense is...does the horse BELONG or not. You are working on 20/20 hindsight with your last reply.

What is your definition of BELONG? Mine is a horse who is sound and fits among the other horses entered in the race - talent wise.

Mr. Z fulfilled that description going into the race...beat three other horses including two that were deemed "more belonging" by the resident cognoscenti here on this board...and finished better than his odds...he was the 6th choice in the wagering.

Those crying out how he didn't belong should either admit they were wrong...again...or stop trying to convince me that I am wrong, which I'm not. He belonged in the race.

Would he have done better against lesser class animals in another race? Sure...probably...who knows.

That's NOT the question being addressed. You and others should state he is BETTER OFF elsewhere, before the Preakness. That might be the CORRECT statement.

But don't say he doesn't belong in the race. That's what I've been debating against from the start.

[BlueChip@DRF]

I say the horse (ToV) belongs. The breeder/owner breeds for distance and the trainer follows suit with those specific charges. Possible to grind out wins over distances where others will falter after a point later in the race.

[beefas]

I agree with chip, and will TOV run a better race in the belmont? With out the slop, I will have em on my bet slips!

[Golf man]

IMHO, Mr. Z was not a win contender if only because his best race was in December, albeit a 3 way photo with Firing Line and Dortmund, a race that he never duplicated. He ran against slightly slower paces after that and could not threaten who ever lead those races and by not getting the lead and having shown no current pressing form, he was out, for me, as a win issue.

[JoeLong]

Tale of Verve... Easy exacta, chalk over the three longest longshots. No brainer 6 bucks gets ya $124.