Paulick: Time for Anti-Lasix advocates to move on to other doping problems

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Interesting that as of about 4:15 pm eastern time today:

More than 2100 viewers at Ray's site took the time to answer a survey.

And of those, just over 73% voted Yes in support of the Horse Racing Integrity Act, which would provide national oversight of medication in the sport.

Screenshot:

It is a start, but the way the entire game is run needs to be controlled by a third party and subject to on-site compliance audits with severe penalties for non conformance. A Federal license to operate should be a requirement that has to be renewed annually. And the owner must be identified as the one with sole responsibility for the horse - that meaning, an OWNER gets days for an infraction, and when the owner is on time off, his entire stable is on days off.

The trainer may also be fined/suspended, but the owner is ultimately responsible.


When I sub contracted another manufacturer to make a part for me, I was 100% responsible to GM for the quality of that part, not the other guy.

It is a COMMON practice in the real world, which horse racing is not presently a member in.

0 race day drugs, 0 tolerance.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Don't they withhold water from horses prior to races even WITH Lasix?

And why would you have to tie the horse to the side of the stall? The water buckets aren't removable?

How many trainers does it take to change a light bulb?

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by Tom

It is a start, but the way the entire game is run needs to be controlled by a third party and subject to on-site compliance audits with severe penalties for non conformance. A Federal license to operate should be a requirement that has to be renewed annually. And the owner must be identified as the one with sole responsibility for the horse - that meaning, an OWNER gets days for an infraction, and when the owner is on time off, his entire stable is on days off.

The trainer may also be fined/suspended, but the owner is ultimately responsible.


When I sub contracted another manufacturer to make a part for me, I was 100% responsible to GM for the quality of that part, not the other guy.

It is a COMMON practice in the real world, which horse racing is not presently a member in.

0 race day drugs, 0 tolerance.

Agreed. Horses runs without race day lasix (and that is what we are talking about) in other jurisdictions, why is the United States a holdout?

I am a proud member of WHOA.

The way racing was meant to be.

Allan

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

LASIX is NOT THE PROBLEM, and it's absurd that we keep talking about it.

The problem is most horses don't need Lasix but they or forced to use it or race at a competitive disadvantage. It also seems to prevent horses from running as often.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Let the conspiracy theories abound.

There are zero trainers who think Lasix has anything at all to do with unclean racing. Zero. What they do think is that Lasix is needed because horses bleed in their lungs at speed. Guess what? Do away with Lasix, and then we'll just do what they do in Europe and what we did in the old days, which is tie the horse up to the side of the stall for 9 hours and withhold all water, you know, really good stuff like that. Or letting them bleed, which is very uncomfortable for the horse when he suddenly finds he can't breathe. Or worse, let him bleed so severely that he actually dies of bleeding. You think that's more humane than giving the horse a simple shot before a race and then giving him electrolyte replacements after the race?

Lasix is the MOST HUMANE treatment for EIPH in horses. Treating the horse humanely should be the top priority.

If humans experienced bleeding in the lungs when they ran, which of you would just let your child bleed in his lungs, resulting in scarring the child's lungs, instead of giving the child a simple treatment that allowed him to play safely?

LASIX is NOT THE PROBLEM, and it's absurd that we keep talking about it.

This is a really specious argument you've got here.

No human would give their kid Lasix in order to run, or do any other noncritical for life activity, unless they were a narcissistic stage mom/dad, living vicariously through their child, in a sad attempt to ease the crushing pain of their own failure, at the no wire hangers level parental sociopathy.

Lasix is extremely unpleasant. It is debilitating. Animals with a say in the matter only take it in what they deem grave necessicity...congentital heart failure, say, or WADA knocking on the door.

If horses are biologically incapable of running, then the answer is not to run them, not to force them to run on Lasix. Lasix is not humane at all. It's a human drug, there will likely be someone within 6 degrees of seperation from you, who can let you try some of theirs. I guarantee they'll have extra--refusing to continue, is the number one out come with the drug.

http://www.doping-prevention.com/sub...ng-agents.html

FWIW the denying water by any means has nothing to do with preventing EPIH, but it has everything to do with why Lasix is used. It creates a more beneficial power to weight rato by reducing water weight.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by Tom

It is a start, but the way the entire game is run needs to be controlled by a third party and subject to on-site compliance audits with severe penalties for non conformance...

Agree 100%.

It's obvious (to me at least) that a single regulatory authority (one that is truly independent from those being regulated) would be light years better than what we have now.

When I look at the 37 or so state regulatory bodies that we have now...

I can't think of a single one that is truly independent from those being regulated.

Imo, one predictable result of that is: Many of the regulatory bodies have a history of sweeping things under the rug if they can. And in cases where they can't - they have a history of showing reluctance (and in some cases outright refusal) to take meaningful action against those they consider to be one of their own.

One comment about the point I was trying to make in my previous post:

My understanding of Paulick Report demographics is that Ray's site draws a higher percentage of readers from the horse community (breeders, owners, trainers, people with jobs in the industry, etc.) than readers who identify as horse players.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Based on past surveys that we've run at HANA, or past surveys created by consulting firms hired by The Jockey Club:

If that same Paulick Report survey were put in front of horseplayers I'd expect 75% or more to vote yes.

But if 70 plus percent of horse people recently voted yes:

Imo, that's really interesting.


-jp

.

[Tom]

If horses are biologically incapable of running, then the answer is not to run them

Bingo!

[Cholly]

Originally Posted by papillon

If horses are biologically incapable of running, then the answer is not to run them

...or breed them

[clocker7]

Give up on the lasix.

The US is not like other jurisdictions, so the comparison is invalid. Any lawyer worth his salt could go into court armed with scientific data and win any case against a vet for using it ... easy peasy.

People are such drama queens about this minor issue ... focus on the real abuses.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Fager, the problem is it also masks doping.

It doesn’t as long as given in certain timeframes, and also has zero effect in blood testing.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Don't they withhold water from horses prior to races even WITH Lasix?

And why would you have to tie the horse to the side of the stall? The water buckets aren't removable?

Because they’re keeping them from eating too, which includes picking at the straw.

And withholding water an hour or two before the race is different that withholding from the night before onwards.

It’s sheer stupidity to allow Lasix to be the hold up in important changes being made. It’s a non-issue. There is a valid argument that it’s the most humane way to treat the horse. In Europe, they train on it, just don’t give on race day. Here, we have probably 50% who do the opposite with only racing on it (the other 50% train and race on it).

Debating Lasix is a waste of time. There are far more important fish to fry.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Give up on the lasix.

The US is not like other jurisdictions, so the comparison is invalid. Any lawyer worth his salt could go into court armed with scientific data and win any case against a vet for using it ... easy peasy.

People are such drama queens about this minor issue ... focus on the real abuses.

How so. Do they have special air in the uk that prevents bleeding.

And who cares about lawyers.

I care about the horses.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Because they’re keeping them from eating too, which includes picking at the straw.

And withholding water an hour or two before the race is different that withholding from the night before onwards.

It’s sheer stupidity to allow Lasix to be the hold up in important changes being made. It’s a non-issue. There is a valid argument that it’s the most humane way to treat the horse. In Europe, they train on it, just don’t give on race day. Here, we have probably 50% who do the opposite with only racing on it (the other 50% train and race on it).

Debating Lasix is a waste of time. There are far more important fish to fry.

Race day lasix is not humane.

Allan

[Tom]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

Race day lasix is not humane.

Allan

Bill Finley predicted that lasix would pretty much devastate the game when NY legalized it. He was correct.

Lasix is a MAJOR issue.
But not nearly so much as horsemen's ATTITUDES about the customers.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

It doesn’t as long as given in certain timeframes, and also has zero effect in blood testing.

I believe the World Anti Doping Agency, which says it does mask and has no reason to lie, over the claims of horsemen who repeatedly lie about everything relating to the health of their horses.