Zen: The ultimate excuse?

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by Hanover1

I'm sorry you cannot stay focused on the horsemanship aspect of the post.

I am fascinated about it, actually.

This is one of the least talked about stories (although it is marveled at in shedrows everywhere across the nation) about the "streak", and it is awesome to see. We are told again and again that we need synth tracks, the breed is brittle, we are inbreeding bad horses with breathing and soundness issues.....

.... I am starting to sway the other way after believing it. I think we are breeding bad trainers; and owners who want to get paid now, so they can sign a deal and spend gazillions trying to do it again.

I like to watch the two year olds go, find one with talent, see how he looks on the track and how he races and see how he progresses. I have gotten to the point where I feel I can make a more than educated guess which one will not make it through the TC series, or even get past the Wood.

I am beginning to think that the "Breeders Cup Jevenile Curse" is nothing more than cover for bad trainers. There has been one Juvy winner who won the Derby - who was he trained by? Old school Carl.

Now we are told again and again that horses can not compete at a high level for a lot of years. We have Zenyatta - she will likely be chalk for three straight BC's, and have run off 19 in a row before that. She has had nothing but a three or four week break in her career, with no track work.

Coincidence? I am beginning not to think so. Some trainers should take a lesson from Carl and John. We might actually be able to develop stars, instead of destroy them before their time.

All my opinion.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by Hanover1

Next time you get up to Goshen NY, stop by the Hall of Fame of the Trotter and Pacer. I am a second generation entrant as voted on by my peers. You still have a ways to go my friend......

Instead of the bullshit about Zenyatta, why not just start out with this? Obviously this is what you wanted to brag about all along, so just do that and save the lame theories for another night.

[Tom]

.... I am starting to sway the other way after believing it. I think we are breeding bad trainers; and owners who want to get paid now, so they can sign a deal and spend gazillions trying to do it again.

Funny you should mention that - there was great discussion on ATR with Byk this week - Tuesday, maybe? I'll look it up. It was about how today's trainers are not exactly blessed with talent and that it is not the horses that are at fault. I think I agree. "Superhigway" dirt racing with the only thing needed is fast early has made a lot of bad trainers look good.

[cj]

Originally Posted by DeanT

Coincidence? I am beginning not to think so. Some trainers should take a lesson from Carl and John. We might actually be able to develop stars, instead of destroy them before their time.

All my opinion.

If the schedule they race is what it takes to keep a star around, not thanks for me.

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by cj

If the schedule they race is what it takes to keep a star around, not thanks for me.

I realize that's the way you feel. But she has raced in 8 straight grade 1's, perfectly on schedule, with no breaks, with good fitness. Maybe not the grade 1s you want, or which ones someone else wants, or against certain grade 1 horses you would like to see.... but 8 straight grade 1s. That is something we do not see much nowadays, and horsemanship is a big part of it.

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by Tom

Funny you should mention that - there was great discussion on ATR with Byk this week - Tuesday, maybe? I'll look it up. It was about how today's trainers are not exactly blessed with talent and that it is not the horses that are at fault. I think I agree. "Superhigway" dirt racing with the only thing needed is fast early has made a lot of bad trainers look good.

Id like to listen to that. I will have a look.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Originally Posted by DeanT

But she has raced in 8 straight grade 1's, perfectly on schedule, with no breaks.

Big deal......not one in Europe, Dubai or over the hurdles.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by DeanT

Id like to listen to that. I will have a look.

All three hours are good.....

http://www.thoroughbredracingradione...y=24&Itemid=35

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by DeanT

horsemanship is a big part of it.

Meanwhile, sportsmanship ("horse sports"?) sits on the bench in street clothes.

[Foolish Pleasure]

"Superhigway" dirt racing with the only thing needed is fast early has made a lot of bad trainers look good.

IMO This is being commonly overstated of late.
No debate that US dirt racing has historically favored speed but it has not been to the degree that has popped up on forums with the advent of synthetic track.

I don't see any particular predisposition to front end speed on this list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Horse_of_the_Year


likewise many former dirt speed ball tracks are not exactly the greatest speedball tracks in the world anymore-places like MON, OP, SPA, GP and others seemed to favor speed much more 20yrs ago than now.

[Pace Cap'n]

Originally Posted by Hanover1

Next time you get up to Goshen NY, stop by the Hall of Fame of the Trotter and Pacer. I am a second generation entrant as voted on by my peers. You still have a ways to go my friend......

We're not worthy...

[cj]

Originally Posted by DeanT

I realize that's the way you feel. But she has raced in 8 straight grade 1's, perfectly on schedule, with no breaks, with good fitness. Maybe not the grade 1s you want, or which ones someone else wants, or against certain grade 1 horses you would like to see.... but 8 straight grade 1s. That is something we do not see much nowadays, and horsemanship is a big part of it.

This isn't exactly some badge of honor. I found many horses in the last 20 years that raced in more than 8 G1s in a row, up to 11, and in a much shorter time span. That is why I say if that is the ideal schedule, no thanks, especially when they are very weak G1s that have very little meaning to the sport outside of California.

[Cardus]

Originally Posted by Hanover1

Let me put in a frame you MIGHT possibly understand here. First off, I never said squat in regards to figures, wins, campaign, ect.....the post was not about that. This is your angle, and that of your ilk. I hope the mare is right as rain myself.....
Having said that, let me try again. Is it not possible (posting a plausible situation here...) that she is/has always been, a race sound mare? IMO it would explain many things. No conspiracy, or 3rd hand information, is included in this plausible question. If you want to knock the mare, I think its already been done tenfold already. Horses haver been known to walk it off before they even head to the gap in the mornings, and noone is the wiser. It does not change the nature of the beast......

Who, exactly, comprises his "ilk"?

[Hanover1]

Originally Posted by DeanT

I am fascinated about it, actually.

This is one of the least talked about stories (although it is marveled at in shedrows everywhere across the nation) about the "streak", and it is awesome to see. We are told again and again that we need synth tracks, the breed is brittle, we are inbreeding bad horses with breathing and soundness issues.....

.... I am starting to sway the other way after believing it. I think we are breeding bad trainers; and owners who want to get paid now, so they can sign a deal and spend gazillions trying to do it again.

I like to watch the two year olds go, find one with talent, see how he looks on the track and how he races and see how he progresses. I have gotten to the point where I feel I can make a more than educated guess which one will not make it through the TC series, or even get past the Wood.

I am beginning to think that the "Breeders Cup Jevenile Curse" is nothing more than cover for bad trainers. There has been one Juvy winner who won the Derby - who was he trained by? Old school Carl.

Now we are told again and again that horses can not compete at a high level for a lot of years. We have Zenyatta - she will likely be chalk for three straight BC's, and have run off 19 in a row before that. She has had nothing but a three or four week break in her career, with no track work.

Coincidence? I am beginning not to think so. Some trainers should take a lesson from Carl and John. We might actually be able to develop stars, instead of destroy them before their time.

All my opinion.

Your points about Carl/Jphn are on the mark. They will all tell you that to pull off a BC juvie win, and try to garner top honors to boot takes alot out of them just when they are in the growthy stage. The Euros value longevity vs american owners who want ROI asap. If they rid the sport of the early money then they might have stronger horses for the long run. And its no secret that the breeding speed to speed has developed a fragile beast, that can be traced to specific family lines. Its tough to find owners with deep enough pockets to wait out natural situation with a horse. They stake them to all the early money, and demand a start. Whats a fellow to do at times? Some will listen, many don't. Lost a good one once as a result of same situation......

[Foolish Pleasure]

It is no secret that the faster an object moves the greater the physical forces on the object.

Breed slower horses they will be more durable. Exactly, breeding horses to run two miles is the same as breeding slower horses-that animal is not hitting the same top speed as one bred for 1mile.

If the Euros breed for longevity why don't we see these older handicap horses in the big world stake races?

Do you think Discreet Cat was well handled?

and putting Shireffs in the same sentence as Saint Carl is blasphemy.