Tunnel systems

[dkithore]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

IMO there is no solution to this problem on the current path!

The Palestinians (and much of the rest of the Arab world) will always and forever feel that the land was unjustly taken, promised to the Jews due to all the antisemitism around the world, and ultimately given to the Jews by the Brits and Americans via the UN which drove Palestinians from their homes and put a massive Jewish immigration into motion. IMO a two state solution can never settle that problem unless the Palestinians so are so beaten to a pulp they can't take it anymore. Otherwise, they will always feel they are fighting for homes that were unjustly taken away. That kind of passion will never go away.

The alternative would be a one state solution that they share, but that's a non starter for the Jews because the demographics will eventually favor the Palestinians and the Jews would lose control.

IMO there is no sensible course of action other than perhaps trying to improve the economic situation of the Palestinians to the point they are less concerned about "country and land" and more concerned about sustaining their economic well being. At that point they could be granted more freedom to move around and might not care enough to fight and die. That's not going to happen when they are locked down in extreme poverty and angry as all hell.

A sensible analysis. agree.

[GaryG]

Originally Posted by Tom

As far as Israel goes, "whatever it takes."

That they will do, regardless of the pronouncements from the Kenyan in the white house. They have no choice when they are surrounded by nations that want to destry them. You can bet some yahoo from Hamas will be at the WH seeking help against their "terrorist" enemy. Regarding Palestian prosperity, I don't see that as a factor. They have one goal, to get their land back....and they can't have it. Many years ago they were offered a slice of Jordan with maybe part of Syria as Nuevo Palestine. They were not interested. So....screw em.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm glad Israel finally took a hard-line stance against the people attacking them. I'm glad they didn't bend to the will of the rest of the world this time. I'm glad they didn't bend to those who outrageously accuse them of genocide...to those telling them to consider their history and equating what happened to them to what is happening to Palestinians. Most intelligent people can see through that garbage for what it is.

The simple fact is that what is going on there is what has gone on between nations and people throughout the ages. Only somehow, it's ALWAYS different every time it involves Israel, as they are the only ones asked to show restraint against those who attack them and wish to see them annihilated. It's bullshit and it's the only true hypocrisy of this story. Why should Israel show restraint?

They are the only country who is attacked multiple times throughout history, is victorious each time, but is asked to give back what they've won (in order to establish peace) despite NOT initiating the fight in the first place. It's ridiculous.

So this time, they aren't backing down and they are not bending over due to pressure coming from the bleeding heart nations (the US being one of them of course). This is a good thing.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I'm glad Israel finally took a hard-line stance against the people attacking them. I'm glad they didn't bend to the will of the rest of the world this time. I'm glad they didn't bend to those who outrageously accuse them of genocide...to those telling them to consider their history and equating what happened to them to what is happening to Palestinians. Most intelligent people can see through that garbage for what it is.

The simple fact is that what is going on there is what has gone on between nations and people throughout the ages. Only somehow, it's ALWAYS different every time it involves Israel, as they are the only ones asked to show restraint against those who attack them and wish to see them annihilated. It's bullshit and it's the only true hypocrisy of this story. Why should Israel show restraint?

They are the only country who is attacked multiple times throughout history, is victorious each time, but is asked to give back what they've won (in order to establish peace) despite NOT initiating the fight in the first place. It's ridiculous.

So this time, they aren't backing down and they are not bending over due to pressure coming from the bleeding heart nations (the US being one of them of course). This is a good thing.

IMO it is this short term oriented hard line stance that creates successive generations of Palestinians that want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

IMHO, if the Palestinians were worried about their internet access, new cars, nice homes, small businesses, bank accounts etc.. instead of food, water, medicine, and life's essentials, they might be less inclined to provoke fights by lobbing bombs into Israel.

The argument I am making is similar to the one jokingly made about the Japanese and now the Chinese and Russians buying prime assets in the US. They are way less likely to bomb the US when they'd be destroying their own buildings, factories, and businesses.

Even if I am wrong about everything, so far what they are doing is clearly not working. We are in an endless cycle of violence based on a perceived injustice against the Palestinians from decades ago and Israel's fight for survival against crazed terrorists that come to power because of the conditions there. You have to break that cycle.

[magwell]

Some body once said when they love their children more than they hate the Jews is when this ends...........how sad is that ?

[Tom]

Palestinians = Hamas.
No difference.

[Marshall Bennett]

Originally Posted by Tom

Palestinians = Hamas.
No difference.

Try and compare Hamas with the Nazi Party. Germans believed the Nazi Party was the way to go in the early 30's. They believed Hitler would bring them out of the depression, put people back to work, and food on the table. For a few years he did, but then of course the rest is history.
The Palestinians thought Hamas was the way to go. They didn't support them thinking one day they'd use them and their children as shields and their schools, hospitals, ect. as launching pads while full of people.
What's sad is the civilians are taking the brunt of the casualty list, while Hamas forces remain relatively intact. Even Hitler, the monster he was, didn't use these tactics with his own people. His dealings with Jews is a separate issue unrelated to his military strategy.

[Tom]

Try and compare Hamas with the Nazi Party.

My thoughts exactly.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

IMO it is this short term oriented hard line stance that creates successive generations of Palestinians that want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

That is never going to change. Never. And there are plenty of other nations in the region who hold a similar mindset. Yet they stand by and do nothing to aid the Palestinians minus a few smuggled rockets and whatnot.

They don't help because 1) they know they risk massive retaliation by doing such and 2) they don't want to mess up the good thing they have going, ie rolling in the oil $$$$.

Given the circumstances, Israel isn't in such a bad position, minus the rocket attacks. And they've done a very good job (with US help no doubt) making sure such attacks are minimized via Iron Dome, plus fighting back in the only way that makes sense.

Creating successive generations of anti-Israel militants/terrorists is a given no matter what they do, short-term or long-term. It's the nature of the beast. It's impossible to avoid given how the region developed after WWII.

Showing that they aren't afraid to go hard at the criminal element in Gaza is a no-brainer. You can't allow the criminal element to be emboldened by allowing them to get away with what they were doing without serious repercussion.

[Tom]

Watching Netanyahu on TV last night.
Such a shame the US doesn't have a real leader like him.
We got an ass clown instead.

[GaryG]

Neighbors Iran, Syria and probably Egypt as well don't care about the Palestinians, who have become essentially the point man for the never ending hostility against Israel. Israel will continue to thrash the Arab countries variously, but they have the resolve to carry on to the desired destruction of their enemy. You know damn well that Israel has the resolve, so the beat goes on. It would take an Armageddon to end it, something that is within the realm of possibility. I don't understand why the liberal agenda is in favor of the downtrodden Palestinians. This is not a left-right issue but a right-wrong issue. I can say that because I know what is right.....

[Marshall Bennett]

In 1967 Israel had the capability to destroy and settle many of the disputes in the middle east, not only the Palestinian issue, but much of the Arab territories. Egypt at the time was their biggest concern and they took out their air force and any threat in 6 days including reclaiming Gaza. Other allies of Egypt including Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon would have been a cake walk.
The U.N. and particularly the United States has always pressured Israel to make peace with these immoral scumbags and thus has always been the case even following conflicts. It's too late to assume Israel will ever have this advantage again without our help. The longer the story there lingers, the better equipped and the stronger the element of terrorist sanctioned support goes into the equation for their enemies.
Americans, particularly liberals, would be happy for us to ignore the entire Arab/Israel situation and phase out entirely any military involvement in the middle east. Our military under Obama is shrinking in size. Liberal Democrats and Obama have little or no interest outside our borders.
Eventually the Middle East will be a full blown cluster fk and a humanitarian disaster. It's happening now. When we're eventually forced to get involved we'll suffer 10 fold over what we would now.
Most Americans don't realize how serious the situation truly is there. Just like the Midas man says..." pay me now or pay me later ". It certainly applies here for sure.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Creating successive generations of anti-Israel militants/terrorists is a given no matter what they do, short-term or long-term. It's the nature of the beast. It's impossible to avoid given how the region developed after WWII.

I disagree.

There are always going to be unreasonable people in the world that won't respond to kindness, fairness, justice, reason etc.... in a positive way. That's something the idealists (usually on the left) never grasp. There ARE bad people in the world and a lot of them are Palestinian.

However, IMO, most people respond positively to positive actions and negatively to negative actions. So the idea is to create a policy that both protects Israel in the short term, but improves the conditions of the Palestinians while doing it. IMO that will move the chain in a positive direction for both an inch at a time for decades.

I say this in all honesty. I'm a reasonable guy. If I was a Palestinian living in the conditions in Gaza, I'd probably be plotting how to kill Israeli military forces and political leaders. But I'd be easy to turn. I think most Palestinians want what you and I want. But in conditions like that, hate, anger, and violence will grow and grow.

[Marshall Bennett]

Palestinians, in particular those with power, will never be satisfied till they reclaim Israel. Much like native Americans, only with a lot of international support, organization, and more importantly, more heart.
The only solution in terms of peace is to remove them, because Israel will never go down without what would surely be a world war.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I say this in all honesty. I'm a reasonable guy. If I was a Palestinian living in the conditions in Gaza, I'd probably be plotting how to kill Israeli military forces and political leaders. But I'd be easy to turn. I think most Palestinians want what you and I want. But in conditions like that, hate, anger, and violence will grow and grow.

What's the root cause, in your opinion, of the living conditions in Gaza?