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View Poll Results: Gun Runner vs Songbird
Gun Runner 42 80.77%
Songbird 10 19.23%
Voters: 52. This poll is closed

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Old 07-17-2017, 12:47 PM   #31
Dahoss9698
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I'll remind you that one needn't call someone "a name" to respond like an absolute dick. I don't want to waste my time coming up with a clever way of calling him a dick without directly doing so, just so I'm not calling him "a name." I mean, boo hoo. And you think I'm acting like a kindergartner?

Others on this forum know you protect Da Hoss. I've gotten PMs thanking me for calling him out.

So close the thread for all I care. If Da Hoss responds to me like a dick, I'm going to call him one.
Such a victim/ superhero.

I found it hilarious you were disagreeing with me but then saying you don't remember who they were facing. So what were you disagreeing with? Our argument was predicated on competition.

You're the one crying. You're the one whining because I answered you sarcastically when 3/4 of your posts here are sarcastic. Deal with it or go get a rattle.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:50 PM   #32
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Thinking more about it. She's taken her show to Santa Anita, Del Mar, Keeneland, Belmont, Saratoga, and Delaware Park. G1s wins at all those places.
Like a fan you're focusing on the grade. Not all grade 1s are equal. You've also yet to provide a cogent arguement as to why she's better than any I listed.

But you threw a nice tantrum so you get points for that.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:53 PM   #33
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Others on this forum know you protect Da Hoss. I've gotten PMs thanking me for calling him out.
Yeah, I bet you got tons of PMs. Now who's being the dick exactly?

I've banned Dahoss MULTIPLE TIMES from here. How many times have I banned you?

And I protect him? Whatever man...more disillusion from you and your horde of supporters sending you PMs.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:54 PM   #34
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It's concerning, for sure. But to the best of my knowledge, horses can come back from even severe bone bruising (let's say hers was severe since it took so long to come back) to the top of their game. Chrome was one of recent. I'm trying to recollect. Did he hit his best gear right after returning or did it take him a few races?
Ran a 104 BSF in the Grade 2 San Pasqual off the layoff before heading to Dubai for a prep and the World Cup. Ran 110+ BSFs upon return to the US.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:57 PM   #35
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Such a victim/ superhero.

I found it hilarious you were disagreeing with me but then saying you don't remember who they were facing. So what were you disagreeing with? Our argument was predicated on competition.

You're the one crying. You're the one whining because I answered you sarcastically when 3/4 of your posts here are sarcastic. Deal with it or go get a rattle.
It was noting that I was going off recollection and could be wrong.

You must be a real pleasure to deal with in real life. And that's indeed sarcasm you're reading.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:58 PM   #36
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Like a fan you're focusing on the grade. Not all grade 1s are equal. You've also yet to provide a cogent arguement as to why she's better than any I listed.

But you threw a nice tantrum so you get points for that.
You're on ignore, fella, so keep posting your nonsense. We'll let PA deal with you. Yes, that's more sarcasm.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:04 PM   #37
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Ran a 104 BSF in the Grade 2 San Pasqual off the layoff before heading to Dubai for a prep and the World Cup. Ran 110+ BSFs upon return to the US.
Thanks, Spalding. I thought I remembered a couple light preps (competition wise), but that's a good Beyer. Honestly, her Beyer of 93 came back higher than I thought it was going to be.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:11 PM   #38
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You're on ignore, fella, so keep posting your nonsense. We'll let PA deal with you. Yes, that's more sarcasm.
I'm on ignore but you're quoting my post and responding to me.

Bothers you that you can't debate me about horses, huh?
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:18 PM   #39
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I would say the Songbird we've seen so far this year would get trounced by Gun Runner, but the peak Songbird of last year would give him quite a tussle. She ran Beholder to a nose and Beholder has been competitive against Grade 1 males. Maybe Gun Runner is a bit better than some of the males Beholder beat, but it's close enough.

I know some people are going to say that Songbird had the better trip against Beholder, but I thought the outside paths were good that day and I think Songbird was loose of other quality horses with some speed that backed up chasing her pace (I'm A Chatterbox and Curalina).
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:52 PM   #40
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Anyone have a current set of pp's for comparison?
Gun Runner is the choice though...he has the speed to lay all over the filly and would wear her down anywhere from 1m-1m1/4.

I compare Gun Runner a bit to Roses In May...in their own time they would be champions, but both have the misfortune of being overshadowed by absolute stars...Ghostzapper & Arrogate

P.S....yes, i was a big fan of Roses In May, he was FAST, could run quick splits and keep going
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:36 PM   #41
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Gun Runner is actually a good choice for comparison because to some extent, he also might be considered overrated.

Here is a horse who has failed in literally every single major test he's been in (the KY JC at 2, the KY Derby/Haskell/Travers/BC at 3, and the DWC at 4). Although you might say he "stays" 10f based on the DWC (ignoring that Arrogate--who thrashed him by 15 lengths in the 10f Travers--spotted the field 5 lengths or so at the start), in the end he has done nothing but losing ground in the stretch in all his 10f starts. He didn't win a Grade 1 until after last year's BC and his second Grade 1 score in the Foster came against some of the same horses he beat in the Grade 3 Razorback and Clark.

I'm not convinced he could handle Collected.

The good news is there is only two more 10f Grade 1s of consequence the rest of the year outside the BC (Pacific Classic and JCGC) and he probably won't start in either so his overinflated reputation will be secure if he holds on for second in Arrogate's open lengths victory in this year's BC Classic.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:24 PM   #42
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Funny, I'm seeing the complete opposite. I'm seeing her being discussed as an all time great and top 5 fillies of all time.

I think she's lost a step this year, which is understood. But I also think her record (especially when you look at who she beat last year) is a bit misleading in regards to her place in history. She ran lights out in the Breeders Cup last year, no doubt about it. Outside of that she beat a lot of fillies who are okay, but not very good.

She's a terrific filly, who has been able to take her game on the road many times, which is very admirable. And the fact she wants to win, as evidenced by her record makes her special. But there's more to a record when you start talking all time.
Where are you reading those, seriously, I would like to read professional pieces that make those statements?

I am asking honestly.

Through 13 races her record is historically great (cant see how that is arguable) but I dont see real professionals putting her in a class like that.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:26 PM   #43
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From 2 to 3, Sky Beauty's career was fairly similar to Songbird's. Undefeated at 2 and (nearly) unbeatable at 3 while facing a fairly light 3yo filly crop. Beyond a pair of good but limited/inconsistent Phipps fillies (Dispute and Educated Risk), Sky Beauty pretty much strolled through the season while putting up modest speed figures for the most part. When she faced older horses for the first time in the BC Distaff she was beaten with no excuses (beyond shipping to CA).

The difference between Sky Beauty and Songbird appears at this point to be that Sky Beauty improved from age 3 to 4 averaging 105+ Beyers throughout the year before another meltdown in the Distaff. She only regressed as a 5yo or came undone.

People are saying Songbird has lost a step, but at this point I'd simply say she is the same filly as last year, which means she was never going to be fast enough for an older horse campaign if there was decent talent in the division.

Certainly there are some things possibly holding her back. She took 8 months to return to the races, which no matter what was reported in the press (minor leg injury in stall) suggests quite a lot of wear-and-tear from the previous campaign. In comparison, Hollendorfer's other 3yo champion filly Blind Luck ran as early as mid-January in her 4yo year. There is also something to be said for racing 10f in her second start (never mind shipping for both of those races). As I recall, her Alabama last year was perhaps her most uninspiring run of the season, more workman-like than spectacular.

As some horses seem to show marked improvement in their third start off a layoff I suppose Songbird deserves another chance before she's written off as not making the jump from 3 to 4. However, considering the above its probably just as likely that she goes backwards in her next start.
Isnt the real difference that physically when Sky Beauty shipped, and I am guessing in a plane not by van, that she fell apart? Both of her BC starts she had lost weight and was not the same horse.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:47 PM   #44
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Isnt the real difference that physically when Sky Beauty shipped, and I am guessing in a plane not by van, that she fell apart? Both of her BC starts she had lost weight and was not the same horse.
On speed figures, Sky Beauty ran to form in the '93 BC Distaff. She hovered on either side of 100 BSF all year and she registered 101 in the BC. Both Hollywood Wildcat and Paseana were consistently faster than her throughout the season and remained so on BC day.

That's why Sky Beauty was 9-2 to Paseana's 5-2 and Hollywood Wildcat's 6-5 odds.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:31 PM   #45
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On speed figures, Sky Beauty ran to form in the '93 BC Distaff. She hovered on either side of 100 BSF all year and she registered 101 in the BC. Both Hollywood Wildcat and Paseana were consistently faster than her throughout the season and remained so on BC day.

That's why Sky Beauty was 9-2 to Paseana's 5-2 and Hollywood Wildcat's 6-5 odds.
What about in 94?
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