No real PROOF of PAST POSTING!

[AlsoEligible]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

So they did an investigation into past posting without the SECONDS field?

That's ok, but why weren't the folks responsible for that criminally charged with fraud and/or incompetence?

Because fraud requires proving intent, and there's no such charge as criminal incompetence.

Criminal negligence maybe, but who do you bring that charge against? The tote companies for not thinking to include seconds? Racetrack management for not requesting that the tote include it? Regulatory agencies and state racing commissions for not thinking to mandate it? That's one of the more frustrating things about this industry - everyone has someone else to point the finger at when they need to cover their own asses.

Of course you can say all of the above, but the government isn't taking down the entire industry over missing seconds, especially after the industry recognized and corrected that.

[cj]

Originally Posted by AlsoEligible

Because fraud requires proving intent, and there's no such charge as criminal incompetence.

Criminal negligence maybe, but who do you bring that charge against? The tote companies for not thinking to include seconds? Racetrack management for not requesting that the tote include it? Regulatory agencies and state racing commissions for not thinking to mandate it? That's one of the more frustrating things about this industry - everyone has someone else to point the finger at when they need to cover their own asses.

Of course you can say all of the above, but the government isn't taking down the entire industry over missing seconds, especially after the industry recognized and corrected that.

Just to be clear, the tote companies had time to the second, it was the racetracks that didn't know exactly when races started.

[jay68802]

Originally Posted by cj

Just to be clear, the tote companies had time to the second, it was the racetracks that didn't know exactly when races started.

So from what I have read today we know:

1. The tote company's know when a race starts, but not exactly.

2. The race tracks do not know when a race starts, or how long the race is.

3. The Jockey Club might change the purse earnings for the Pegasus, but not how races are timed and reported.

4. The organization that investigates this, can't find their ass in a room full of mirrors.

5. And none of these people can get the odds on a race right until half way through the race.


Hmmm...

[cj]

Originally Posted by jay68802

So from what I have read today we know:

1. The tote company's know when a race starts, but not exactly.

2. The race tracks do not know when a race starts, or how long the race is.

3. The Jockey Club might change the purse earnings for the Pegasus, but not how races are timed and reported.

4. The organization that investigates this, can't find their ass in a room full of mirrors.

5. And none of these people can get the odds on a race right until half way through the race.


Hmmm...

The tote companies know when bets were placed to the second. When the race starts, seems they rely on the tracks for that.

I believe the tracks do now know #2, but they didn't in the past.

#3 was pure speculation by me but I'd bet it will at least be considered.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by cj

Just to be clear, the tote companies had time to the second, it was the racetracks that didn't know exactly when races started.

Yup. Date-time with the number of seconds was being captured in the tote data.

But the number of seconds was not being captured by the other systems the investigators were using.

That said - not capturing the number of seconds in all of the systems involved was just one part of the problem.

Most people might not think so, but failing to auto-synch all of the systems involved to the same atomic clock - and on a regular basis - was (imo) an even bigger part of the problem.

I can speak from personal experience here.

I have a number of computers in my office. Some of those machines are "air gapped" (purposely never connected to internet.) Doing that is one way to reduce the likelihood of those machines being hacked/picking up malware.

Every few months I'll check the Windows date-time on an air gapped machine. When I do, it's not uncommon for the date-time to be off by a few minutes. One machine in particular (a Toshiba laptop that was new back in 2007) is more troublesome than the others. I checked it just now and the time is about 2 minutes slow. (Of course if ever decide to connect it to the internet it would have the ability to auto-update the time by periodically getting it from an atomic clock.)

One of the problems before the new protocols were adopted back in 2009 was that no one thought there was any real reason to synch track video systems to an atomic click on a regular basis.

If the clock in the track video system was off by a few seconds, or even a minute or two... So what? You could use it to televise the races. And get the video files up on a server so people could watch the replays afterwards.


-jp

.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Yup. Date-time with the number of seconds was being captured in the tote data.

But the number of seconds was not being captured by the other systems the investigators were using.

That said - not capturing the number of seconds in all of the systems involved was just one part of the problem.

Most people might not think so, but failing to auto-synch all of the systems involved to the same atomic clock - and on a regular basis - was (imo) an even bigger part of the problem.

I can speak from personal experience here.

I have a number of computers in my office. Some of those machines are "air gapped" (purposely never connected to internet.) Doing that is one way to reduce the likelihood of those machines being hacked/picking up malware.

Every few months I'll check the Windows date-time on an air gapped machine. When I do, it's not uncommon for the date-time to be off by a few minutes. One machine in particular (a Toshiba laptop that was new back in 2007) is more troublesome than the others. I checked it just now and the time is about 2 minutes slow. (Of course if ever decide to connect it to the internet it would have the ability to auto-update the time by periodically getting it from an atomic clock.)

One of the problems before the new protocols were adopted back in 2009 was that no one thought there was any real reason to synch track video systems to an atomic click on a regular basis.

If the clock in the track video system was off by a few seconds, or even a minute or two... So what? You could use it to televise the races. And get the video files up on a server so people could watch the replays afterwards.


-jp

.

Good info.

If there were other races on the same day where the tote wasn't a problem, i.e. closed on time, the investigation could have been a lot better. You just check the "stop" signal in the tote and look at the time on the replay when the bell rang and note the time on the video. If they are different, you have you time gap and can apply it to the race in question. If they are the same, no problem. The information is there you just have to work a bit for it.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by cj

Good info.

If there were other races on the same day where the tote wasn't a problem, i.e. closed on time, the investigation could have been a lot better. You just check the "stop" signal in the tote and look at the time on the replay when the bell rang and note the time on the video. If they are different, you have you time gap and can apply it to the race in question. If they are the same, no problem. The information is there you just have to work a bit for it.

Yup.

That info was certainly there if they wanted to dig for it.

But did they dig for it?

After talking with some of them (not now but back then) I was never 100% convinced they really wanted to.


-jp

.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by cj

He paid $6.80, thus 2-1. He could have been 2.4 to 1 all along, no?

Pretty sure I helped push his final odds up (by betting on another horse.)


-jp

.

[Denny]

In this day and age, why are we still. seeing odds displayed as 8/5, 5/2 and not in decimal to the nearest dime or nickel?

Just another old outdated way of doing things like they did 100 years ago.

Dumb sport.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Denny

In this day and age, why are we still. seeing odds displayed as 8/5, 5/2 and not in decimal to the nearest dime or nickel?

Just another old outdated way of doing things like they did 100 years ago.

Dumb sport.

Why, more than a few tracks would have to SPEND MONEY to update their toteboards to display such things...plus they'd probably have to SPEND MONEY with the tote operators for new/updated software.

They don't like spending money on their customers.

[Augenj]

Originally Posted by Denny

In this day and age, why are we still. seeing odds displayed as 8/5, 5/2 and not in decimal to the nearest dime or nickel?

Just another old outdated way of doing things like they did 100 years ago.

Dumb sport.

Have you ever tried to introduce a newcomer to this "sport" with odds like that where you actually have to divide? They're baffled. Good luck on getting them to return the next time (my wife). Personally, I'd like to see all bets normalized to $1.00 on the tote board and at the ticket sellers. It should be easy for anybody to move a zero in their heads for the popular dime bets. Or not.

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by toddbowker

Yes, he did ... in 2007 ....

As in you agree it was a problem, or that you feel 2007 was so long ago its not relevant? If that's the case, I couldn't disagree more. 2007 wasn't THAT long ago.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Valuist

As in you agree it was a problem, or that you feel 2007 was so long ago its not relevant? If that's the case, I couldn't disagree more. 2007 wasn't THAT long ago.

It is THAT long ago IF one assumes during the ensuing 10+ years, the racing industry diligently worked to ensure every "hole" was discovered, found, fixed, and any other potential "holes" upgraded to make sure something like that never happened again.

I think we're all laughing a little bit just about now after reading what I just wrote. Maybe we should be crying instead...

[Jeff P]

Obviously the industry hasn't as you put it 'diligently worked to ensure every "hole" was discovered, found, fixed, and any other potential "holes" upgraded to make sure something like that never happened again.'

The industry still allows large wager cancels in the last flash of betting.

Which amounts to: pool manipulation.



-jp

.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It is THAT long ago IF one assumes during the ensuing 10+ years, the racing industry diligently worked to ensure every "hole" was discovered, found, fixed, and any other potential "holes" upgraded to make sure something like that never happened again.

I think we're all laughing a little bit just about now after reading what I just wrote. Maybe we should be crying instead...

there is 100% proof that past posting goes on in broad daylight in harness racing. as far as i know, they are using the very same tote machines in harness as they do in a thoroughbred. are you saying that even though there is past posting going on in harness, the past posters leave the thoroughbreds alone because they are such nice fellows?

i can bring you to a place today and show you how easy it is to past post harness races if you would like.