Odds changes during races WHAT A JOKE

[PaceAdvantage]

If what they are doing is drastically altering the game for 99% of the other players, which it is, then you can make a very strong argument, that yes you can curtail their actions for the good of the vast majority.

If it were just some guy cutting odds of an 8-1 horse down to 6-1, nobody would care.

But these guys are taking 9-1s down to 9-2 at a track like Keeneland, and 99% of the world never gets a chance to see it coming.

That's complete and utter nonsense and has to stop.

Like I said, and this is a very important point that nobody seems to comment on.

These multi-million dollar teams are essentially getting FIXED odds on their selections in a pari-mutuel system.

Think about that and tell me nothing should be done about it.

You can 100% cut these guys off, or put restrictions on them if they want to continue to participate in a pari-mutuel game. They are an abomination. I've changed my thinking on this 100%

In fact, you sound just like me not too long ago. Not any more.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Exactly my point. What is the point?

I have no idea what the complaint is here.

You realize you cant stop anyone form betting as much as they want on any horse, right?

Let's assume there's no after the bell betting. No proof of it at this point.


Are we objecting to big bettors? Bettors that bet late? Bettors that are smarter than you/have more info than you?

Rebaters?

What exactly would calm the natives?

You realize you cant stop anyone from betting as much as they want at any time up till the bell on any horse.

I think that's the problem, isn't it? You seem to think that because it's not illegal, it's okay. Fine, it's "okay" for the odds to drastically change after almost all of us have bet. But it's killing the value of racing for all but a few.

Sure, some people don't care. Look in this thread. Dave Schwartz, he's a very smart guy, and he's attacking from a different angle where the final price is not vital to his decisions. That's cool. Biggestal will post for the 100th time about the NJ Exchange, which has no liquidity and few people on this site can bet anyway, but whatever. And there will always be a few people who claim they win anyway (like you?).

But this is an issue because if no non-whale can bet with 1 minute to post and know if he's getting 9-1 or 9-5, that's a major disincentive for MOST of us to bother wagering. If there's nothing to be done about it, fine, but people are leaving the game, fields are shrinking, handle is stagnant, purses are fully propped up by slots, and the quality of racing and wagering opportunities largely sucks. If that's the game you want to play, keep supporting the status quo and you're going to get it.

[GMB@BP]

Its also not just last second bets being made but as I understand it they can batch cancel as well to manipulate the pools?

[jay68802]

What is that word I am looking for? When a small group controls a large population? Just can't seem to think of it.....

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by castaway01

I think that's the problem, isn't it? You seem to think that because it's not illegal, it's okay. Fine, it's "okay" for the odds to drastically change after almost all of us have bet. But it's killing the value of racing for all but a few.

Sure, some people don't care. Look in this thread. Dave Schwartz, he's a very smart guy, and he's attacking from a different angle where the final price is not vital to his decisions. That's cool. Biggestal will post for the 100th time about the NJ Exchange, which has no liquidity and few people on this site can bet anyway, but whatever. And there will always be a few people who claim they win anyway (like you?).

But this is an issue because if no non-whale can bet with 1 minute to post and know if he's getting 9-1 or 9-5, that's a major disincentive for MOST of us to bother wagering. If there's nothing to be done about it, fine, but people are leaving the game, fields are shrinking, handle is stagnant, purses are fully propped up by slots, and the quality of racing and wagering opportunities largely sucks. If that's the game you want to play, keep supporting the status quo and you're going to get it.

Love this post. Well-said.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Its also not just last second bets being made but as I understand it they can batch cancel as well to manipulate the pools?

This is where I think we need a hard and fast rule - no cancelling a bet. Take the time to figure it out before you make it - once you do, you live with it.

[Jeff P]

Agree with you 100% Tom.

It's one thing if you're canceling a small ticket to correct a mistake.

But it's obvious to everybody watching that we have way too many large cancels being made just before the race off - and these are just out and out pool manipulation.

Imo, allowing large cancels is terrible from an integrity of the game standpoint.


-jp

.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by Tom

This is where I think we need a hard and fast rule - no cancelling a bet. Take the time to figure it out before you make it - once you do, you live with it.

This was the case with Twinspires for years wasn’t it? I remember betting somewhere with no ability to cancel. It was like that for years

[stefan084]

-get on a fixed odds exchange like BetFair. you guys are too good to be wasting your talents on parimutuel betting. (yes I realize Betfair isn't technically available to americans but there are ways around it)

[Pensacola Pete]

They've been late-betting for 15 years in Hong Kong, and the public doesn't get to see much of it. A guy who pays for a live feed said that even he only sees about a third of the late bets. With $1 million plus (USD) in the win pool, a horse will come down from 10-1 to 4-1 at the end, and nobody will know until betting is closed. It wouldn't surprise me if the same guys branched out to the U.S. a long time ago, because this isn't new.

As far as batch cancels go, that probably doesn't happen for long because the other whales will complain when the odds they bet on get screwed up by the manipulator.

[Fager Fan]

So, in 46 pages did you reach a consensus on how to fix? Will you be happy with cut-off prior to post, or will you still be unhappy as your odds plummet after that cut-off time whenever it happens to be?

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Pensacola Pete

They've been late-betting for 15 years in Hong Kong, and the public doesn't get to see much of it. A guy who pays for a live feed said that even he only sees about a third of the late bets. With $1 million plus (USD) in the win pool, a horse will come down from 10-1 to 4-1 at the end, and nobody will know until betting is closed. It wouldn't surprise me if the same guys branched out to the U.S. a long time ago, because this isn't new.

As far as batch cancels go, that probably doesn't happen for long because the other whales will complain when the odds they bet on get screwed up by the manipulator.

Pete,

I had a client in Japan for a short while - just long enough for me to attend the World Cup in Yokohama. LOL

At that time you had to bet in person, so he and I would go to the "racebook" carrying between $1m and $3m usd in a tote bag. (The money was in yen.)

The racebook was called "WINS," a 7-story building with 125 ticket writers per floor. The "big players" were on the 4th floor.

Punchline: My guy wagered $1m per day and was not big enough to qualify for the 4th floor.


Dave

[green80]

If a track or ADW does something to give one person a wagering advantage over another, do we still have a paramutual game here?

Someone or a group of people need to file a lawsuit and take this to court and see what a judge says. There may be some state laws that come into play here or there may need to be some updates to the existing laws. One horseplayer couldn't afford the legal fees but as a group we may be able to.

The threat of a class-action suit may change some things.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by green80

If a track or ADW does something to give one person a wagering advantage over another, do we still have a paramutual game here?

Someone or a group of people need to file a lawsuit and take this to court and see what a judge says. There may be some state laws that come into play here or there may need to be some updates to the existing laws. One horseplayer couldn't afford the legal fees but as a group we may be able to.

The threat of a class-action suit may change some things.

Except they don't have an advantage that you are I are missing.

Except $$$millions$$$ to bet with, and better handicapping software. But money and better tools have always been an accepted advantage.

I could sit in front of a bank of monitors and bet a ton of money in the last 20-30 seconds before a race goes off. And it would affect the odds. And you wouldn't see that, most likely, until the horses were well on their way.

Should I be taken to court?

Until racing changes its technology, and ALL outlets transmit their wagers to the tote INSTANTLY, which is updated INSTANTLY, they must put a limit on the amount of money these guys can push through in the last minute of wagering.

And that's it.

It can be done. They just won't want to do it.

[green80]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Except they don't have an advantage that you are I are missing.

Except $$$millions$$$ to bet with, and better handicapping software. But money and better tools have always been an accepted advantage.

I could sit in front of a bank of monitors and bet a ton of money in the last 20-30 seconds before a race goes off. And it would affect the odds. And you wouldn't see that, most likely, until the horses were well on their way.

Should I be taken to court?

Until racing changes its technology, and ALL outlets transmit their wagers to the tote INSTANTLY, which is updated INSTANTLY, they must put a limit on the amount of money these guys can push through in the last minute of wagering.

And that's it.

It can be done. They just won't want to do it.

So you don't think any past posting or pool manipulation is going on? Just guys making big bets at the last possible second? Looks like they are right a lot.

In the good old days when a guy had to make his bet with cash, at the track, just the process of counting that much money prevented this problem.