Bring Dutrow Back

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Clueless. Unless by juicer, you mean using legal medications.

Mepivacaine was a legal medication when Dutrow administered it to a horse.

Who knew?

I am hardly clueless but then again I don’t have an agenda to let a known drugger of horses back into the game.

As dutrow himself has said.

“Half of the suspensions were deserved”

Allan

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

They were found. Do you have any proof they were planted?

I know that the plant defense was also the one used for Biancone. I don't think that we can go with the plant defense, do you? Not without any evidence?

As for Dutrow, I don't know why you all don't think administrative problems aren't problems. Didn't he even have horses scratched because he didn't get their papers on file? Having the papers on file is what every trainer has to make sure of every day, and if they all took it with the lack of regard that Dutrow did then it'd be quite a mess every race day.

I'm good with anyone who wants to say 10 years was too long, but I don't see all those who make light of his long list of being the "problem child" of trainers at the track. Wasn't he a grown up who could've at least hired someone to take care of all the paperwork if he had no intention of playing by the rules of life, which unfortunately does include paperwork?

And I don't see "great care" as a mitigating factor either. All SHOULD take great care, so you don't get a gold star for doing what you're supposed to do in that regard.

We've got people arguing over this from the standpoints of defending or not defending Dutrow, when I think we all agree that the penalties of racing aren't applied equally and fairly.

I don't know about any plant defense for anybody. I do know all about Rickie. What they found, where they found it, who they said was the possessor of it, the drug that it was and the typical tactics used by backstretch security that I witnessed over decades of time allow me to draw an easy conclusion. There are several other factors that I wish I could talk about but I just cannot discuss them.

All of what I just said is so completely NOT Rick that it screams plant. That's all I can really say. Maybe the fact that I do not recall ever coming here to post anything but what I have seen, how things are done, and truly tried to help wherever I could might carry a drop of weight. But if not, that's OK too.

I never made light of his long list of being a problem child, I said he had total reckless disregard .

I mocked the took great care card played for a reason to end his suspension. But that said, and it doesn't mean a thing in regards to the suspension, it just so happens that he DID take great care of his horses. But what the hell, so did I as well as many others including any trainer that came up under his dad.

We do agree that the penalties of racing were not applied equally and fairly. And because of that, people for him want to talk about great care and people against want to say he was a juicer, cheated etc.

One side is lame and the other couldn't be further from the truth IMO.

Unfortunately, very few if any can approach the people responsible for the length of the suspension and have any kind of discussion. They wanted him gone and found an avenue for that to happen.

[Denny]

I think most fair-minded individuals would agree that the penalty exceeded the alleged crimes.

Five years is enough.

Let the man have a chance at redemption.

Far more knowledgeable people than me, familiar with the details of the case feel this way too - and they have nothing to gain by his reinstatement.

There were highly questionable motives involved in his being punished so severely.

Let the man have his life back. That's the last thing I've got to say on this.

[burnsy]

This is a subject that has caused problems in other sports too. The lack of uniformity doling out penalties and punishment. Without a Code of Conduct and lacking set rulings........it goes two ways, you are really good and have the right "friends"........... or you are really good and you are made the whipping boy. Usually people that run their mouths or get caught on tape are the latter. This applies to more than just horse racing. If one is bad mojo for PR....the politics of it will bury them. That's life, in the big leagues.......

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

Mepivacaine was a legal medication when Dutrow administered it to a horse.

Who knew?

I am hardly clueless but then again I don’t have an agenda to let a known drugger of horses back into the game.

As dutrow himself has said.

“Half of the suspensions were deserved”

Allan

Some people must be confused that I have said somewhere that Dutrow is an angel and the perfect trainer, to be put on a pedestal, with "how-to-be-like-Rick" books written for future generations of racehorse trainers.

Not.

The simple point is YES he deserves to be back in racing...unless you want to give all the other trainers with offenses similar or worse than Dutrow, 10-year vacations as well.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

Mepivacaine was a legal medication when Dutrow administered it to a horse.

Who knew?

I am hardly clueless but then again I don’t have an agenda to let a known drugger of horses back into the game.

As dutrow himself has said.

“Half of the suspensions were deserved”

Allan

I guess Bill Mott is a juicer too...under your rules. He's a known drugger as well. Got suspended for it at least. He's a juicer.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

I don't know about any plant defense for anybody. I do know all about Rickie. What they found, where they found it, who they said was the possessor of it, the drug that it was and the typical tactics used by backstretch security that I witnessed over decades of time allow me to draw an easy conclusion. There are several other factors that I wish I could talk about but I just cannot discuss them.

All of what I just said is so completely NOT Rick that it screams plant. That's all I can really say. Maybe the fact that I do not recall ever coming here to post anything but what I have seen, how things are done, and truly tried to help wherever I could might carry a drop of weight. But if not, that's OK too.

I never made light of his long list of being a problem child, I said he had total reckless disregard .

I mocked the took great care card played for a reason to end his suspension. But that said, and it doesn't mean a thing in regards to the suspension, it just so happens that he DID take great care of his horses. But what the hell, so did I as well as many others including any trainer that came up under his dad.

We do agree that the penalties of racing were not applied equally and fairly. And because of that, people for him want to talk about great care and people against want to say he was a juicer, cheated etc.

One side is lame and the other couldn't be further from the truth IMO.

Unfortunately, very few if any can approach the people responsible for the length of the suspension and have any kind of discussion. They wanted him gone and found an avenue for that to happen.

Good point about where it's possible to defend or argue against without using either extreme - juicer, or extraordinary caretaker - neither of which I believe is true.

[thaskalos]

IMO...reinstating Dutrow should be WAY down the game's to-do list.

[Tom]

The simple point is YES he deserves to be back in racing...unless you want to give all the other trainers with offenses similar or worse than Dutrow, 10-year vacations as well.

In a word, YES.
Cheaters do not belong in the game.

Why worry about giving trainers a second chance - are you going to give the people who lost their money a refund?

When trainers cheat, CUSTOMERS lose.

[PaceAdvantage]

Better wipe the game clean of way bigger cheats then Dutrow then, or it's all useless talk.

I don't even consider Dutrow a "cheat."

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How many times was Dutrow fined or suspended in this game? Doesn't there come a time when it becomes obvious that a heavier sentence must be handed down when the "regular punishment" no longer works as much of a deterrent?

In a 5-year stretch between 2003 and 2008, Dutrow was suspended 3 times for a period of time totaling over 100 days.

By the end of 2010, he had 2 more infractions pending that would have led to a 30 day suspension and a 60 day suspension, respectively. These potential penalties were stayed because an appeal was submitted by Dutrow, and ultimately the state pursued a license revocation penalty.

Ironically, despite the protests in this thread, the Board was lenient with Dutrow in that the Hearing Officer's recommendation called for "permanent license revocation". The Board reduced the period of ineligibility to 10 years to provide for the possibility that Dutrow may "rehabilitate himself and deserve reconsideration" for reapplication.

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Yes.

Yes.

None.

GFY

[cj]

Just because all criminals don't get caught doesn't mean I want to let off the ones that do. I think the penalty was too harsh compared to what others are given, but I really don't care to be honest. The "xxx is worse" defense doesn't fly with me.

[Hambletonian]

Can anyone here explain while trainers who repeatedly act in a way to defraud bettors and other owners should not be banned for life?

If only they could be sued by bettors and the other owners, the whole situation would resolve itself. The fact is that cheating in racing persists because the penalties are ridiculously light in terms of the number of folks who end up defrauded.

You rob a liquor store for 20K and get caught you go to prison. You defraud thousands of bettors and steal a 20K purse and you may get a 2 week vacation.

I could not give less of a crud about Dutrow. He is the sole owner of all of his troubles.

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by Hambletonian

Can anyone here explain while trainers who repeatedly act in a way to defraud bettors and other owners should not be banned for life?

If only they could be sued by bettors and the other owners, the whole situation would resolve itself. The fact is that cheating in racing persists because the penalties are ridiculously light in terms of the number of folks who end up defrauded.

You rob a liquor store for 20K and get caught you go to prison. You defraud thousands of bettors and steal a 20K purse and you may get a 2 week vacation.

I could not give less of a crud about Dutrow. He is the sole owner of all of his troubles.

Agree. Here are some facts about Dutrow. I haven't fact checked every incident.

A person like this should be reinstated?:

In the 1980s, he was banned from Maryland tracks for a year then five years from New York for various marijuana offenses (possession, failed drug tests, getting caught with a "concealed apparatus" to provide a fake urine sample). Years later, the mother of his daughter was murdered in a drug-related break-in. By 1998, he was sleeping on a cot next to saddles and bridles and other equipment in a tack room of Barn 1 at Aqueduct, a couple of cheap horses in stalls just outside the door and nothing but a microwave, fridge, and television to keep him company.

He had come back and more by 2001, with the help of wealthy owners like Wall Street trader Sandy Goldfarb, leading New York in wins and, a few years later, winning the Breeders' Cup Classic with Eclipse Award winner Saint Liam. He wagered outrageous sums on his own horses and bragged about it, such as the $160,000 plunge he took on Saint Liam that day, pocketing more than $385,000.

There were drug positives every year since 2000, some minor and others more serious, like a 60-day suspension for giving his horses painkillers. While serving the ban he remained in contact with his barn, which won him another suspension and a $25,000 fine. In 2005, he conspired to hide the workouts of a horse named Wild Desert leading up to a major victory in Canada.

Workout times are published in racing programs; because of their importance to gamblers, they're supposed to be accurate. Dutrow ostensibly wanted to conceal from the public how well Wild Desert was training in the hopes of finding longer odds for his team on the day of the race. It was an elaborate fraud in which three of his assistants—Rudy Rodriguez, Juan Rodriguez, and Nevin—were fined at least $1,000 for their roles. They reported a false workout for Wild Desert at Monmouth Park, in New Jersey, when in fact the horse had never left Aqueduct. On another occasion, Wild Desert breezed before the official clocker had arrived. New Jersey officials would say that Dutrow and Rudy Rodriguez tried to mislead them in their investigation, and Dutrow was suspended 14 days and fined $5,000, while Rodriguez got a seven-day suspension and a $1,000 fine. The fines paled in comparison to the money the owners won on Wild Desert.

The attention Big Brown had brought to the sport quickly turned negative. Congress held a hearing on racing's problems; Dutrow was a no-show. Months later, it came out that one of his horses had tested positive in a stakes race at Churchill Downs the day before Big Brown won the Derby. He received a 15-day suspension.

Eventually, Dutrow's dark clouds had to break. In February 2011, New York suspended him for 90 days after one of his horses had tested positive for a banned painkiller and three unmarked hypodermic needles containing muscle relaxant had been discovered in a search of his office. Ed Martin, the president of the Association of Racing Commissioners International, wrote a letter to the New York State and Racing Wagering Board urging it go further and ban Dutrow.

https://deadspin.com/how-big-browns-...ings-504679834