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Old 12-02-2022, 10:07 AM   #31
mountainman
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Although this ride doesn't strictly fit the Leon template (there seemed other factors involved in this trip), Sonny is highly unorthodox in rationing a horse's energy, and I have seen him engineer similar running lines many times.

A favorite trick of his with horses prominent early but unable to hold aggressive position is to COMPLETELY lay out by relaxing his mount and dropping off the pace. I mean he wants the horse to shut down through the mid-stages and forget there is even a race in progress. Surprisingly often, he manages to come again with a late burst, usually splitting horses, and win with a runner visually dismissed earlier on.

Sonny's internal clock just ticks at a different tempo.

Last edited by mountainman; 12-02-2022 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 12-02-2022, 12:29 PM   #32
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=It's so easy for people to holler STIFF!

Do jocks hold horses?

Sure, it happens but not nearly as often as people think.

There are a million reasons why it may appear a rider is not giving a maximum effort that aren't nefarious.

By far the biggest one is horses that are sore.

Well then just take them to the vet and have them scratched.

For reasons I haven't figured out in my 45 years in the game. Trainers get pissed when horses are late VET scratches. Jock's are more willing to not let a sore one run than hear the wrath and lost business from trainers who will take them off other horses.

I'd think they'd be happy the rider and vet are looking out for the best welfare of the horse. You can always run back in a couple weeks.

I guess they think it makes them look bad. I don't.

Other reasons why a horse may look like it's being stiffed?

Green, still learning.

Equipment they hate.

Riders that are well let's just say not as brave as some others. This becomes clear very quickly and that jock's business goes immediately into the crapper.

Here's a big one. TRACK CONDITION. When a horse hates the track, the jock feels like he's trying to walk across an ice rink in spike heels. It's going to make the jock look very tentative as though he's not trying when in fact, he's just trying to nurse him along and avoid anyone getting hurt.

Studs who just refuse to run. Beating them up and overtrying is counterproductive. Just pisses them off and makes them more contrary.

Fillies that are in heat. Horses that like running behind fillies that are in heat. Believe me that happens. Thankfully I don't do that anymore.

Then we graduate into actual race fixing. A multipronged conspiracy.

Does that happen? Yes. But I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've seen it since I first came to the races in 1975.

There's no reason to risk an entire career by "trying" to make one big score. Especially with multiple people being involved.

Bottom line. Are there some shady characters? Sure, no different than any other billion-dollar industry.

But there are also legions of qualified regulators that know what to look for. Stewards, TRPB, Commissions, HISA, myself.

As well as people who have devoted their lives to gaining intimate knowledge into the real interworking's of the game, TLG et al, that also know what to look for.

My suggestion is to take all the times many of you are wasting looking for jocks who are stiffing horses and use that time to dive deeper into your handicapping and find ways to take the money of the conspiracy theorists and lazy cappers who aren't willing to do the work.

LET'S GO!
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Old 12-02-2022, 12:38 PM   #33
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If I had bet that horse, I would be giddy ith the ride!
I got to root TWICE in the same race. Usually, I justchat with the ambulence driver for a couple minutes.

But this a good discussion, because it shows how important good race watching reall is. We went from a grand jury indictment to a perfectly logicall explanation and maybe a horse to watch.
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Old 12-02-2022, 01:44 PM   #34
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Riders that are well let's just say not as brave as some others. This becomes clear very quickly and that jock's business goes immediately into the crapper.

Thanks for the insight, much appreciated. What I quoted described Bill Shoemaker during his last couple years riding. A lot of people seemed to turn a blind eye to that. I for one did not. Unless he was on any easy lone F, I did not bet on him. I will admit I cashed my record win bet $ profit on one of his rides. Maybe having the Shoe up made her odds better and others were catching on.
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Old 12-02-2022, 02:26 PM   #35
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thank you V.J. your point is well taken . and you sir are the first track employee that has at least acknowledged that it could occur i do agree that it is rare but its one of the hazards of making a bet . as for the jocks ride he made a mistake going to the front route races are not very often won on the front end gl
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Old 12-02-2022, 03:02 PM   #36
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I would not bet on an artificial track with someone else's money.
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Old 12-02-2022, 05:24 PM   #37
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I would not bet on an artificial track with someone else's money.
What if I gave you some [I]counterfit[/ money? I]
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Old 12-02-2022, 05:39 PM   #38
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there was no stiff job here

Gulfstream's Tapeta is actually extremely off the pace favoring for the most part (which I think makes it particularly bettable, given the reactions here and how slow people are to realize this, it's blatantly clear actually) - Sonny seemed to understand

Early Speed almost never holds on the Tapeta at Gulfstream

as for races never being stiffed, of course they are
Actually in sprints speed has been holding well and winning but yes in route races it favors of the pace horses,
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Old 12-02-2022, 05:44 PM   #39
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Championship meet? Tapeta has made Gulfstream irrelevant handle was down 30% last year itís now known as the ChampionSHIT meet.
I'd rather be betting Gulfstream at this time of the year instead of Aqueduct or Fairgrounds or Laurel
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Old 12-02-2022, 06:25 PM   #40
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I would not bet on an artificial track with someone else's money.
I think Tapeta brings about these goofy rides.
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Old 12-02-2022, 06:47 PM   #41
v j stauffer
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I think Tapeta brings about these goofy rides.
There's something to that.

I was a Safety Steward at Golden Gate Fields.

Aaron Gryder was there and we'd talk periodically.

He said riding on that synthetic was VERY difficult.

Sometimes changed his tactics. Told me that if his horse was making a sustained forward advance, he had to make sure the horse didn't lose momentum. Almost impossible to get going again and re-rally.

Caused him to ride much wider than he preferred.
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Old 12-02-2022, 07:20 PM   #42
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Thanks, Vic. You always bring a lot to discussions. Of horses, anyway, not sure of anything else. Ha!
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Old 12-02-2022, 07:41 PM   #43
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From finish to end the 1/4 times were 25.82, 24.53, 24.14, 24.07. The last quarter was projected from the 27.90 seconds for 1/4 + 70 yards.


I did not see the form, I am guessing everyone was slow out of the gate and plodded his way to the front, a place he normally doesn't find himself. The rider did not look to have "asked for speed" (memories of Luke K) and he just let the horse run on his own, till they were about about 5 furlongs into the race, then he takes his feet off the dashboard and starts pumping his hands.
He probably gave the horse the normal or planned ride and it just looked odd because how the other horses ran.
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Old 12-02-2022, 11:44 PM   #44
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He probably gave the horse the normal or planned ride and it just looked odd because how the other horses ran.
Bingo. Sonny rides in a bubble.
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Old 12-03-2022, 12:33 AM   #45
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I'd rather be betting Gulfstream at this time of the year instead of Aqueduct or Fairgrounds or Laurel

Betting Tapeta is like buying lottery tickets,and itís not just my opinion the smartest and best handicappers
avoid it like the plague ,handle last year was down 30% because all the serious players stop betting Gulfstream ,J.Hardoon of the Ragozin SHEETS does a daily zoom handicapping seminar of the NYRA races,when Gulfstream starts its Championship meet he always switches to Gulfstream,he did last year,it lasted 3 days,and he was back doing Aueduct, he said unpredictable, times mean nothing running lines mean nothing,I understand they have a turf course this year but what do you do w/ all these horses w/ Tapeta lines.
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