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Old 05-10-2017, 04:47 PM   #16
therussmeister
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Originally Posted by Andy Asaro View Post
Even though it's 12% pool size is probably small. Ran into similar with Canterbury P4's and 5's. Not worth playing into small pool IMO
That's why I do not yet like the super high fives at a buck, pools are generally too small. There have been many instances where I have hit a superfecta that pays something like $1200 for a buck and then I notice I could have put in the exact same ticket in the high five and swept the pool for $690. This is why I'm skeptical of such things as a $5 minimum trifecta. The pool will be too small.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:53 PM   #17
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That's why I do not yet like the super high fives at a buck, pools are generally too small. There have been many instances where I have hit a superfecta that pays something like $1200 for a buck and then I notice I could have put in the exact same ticket in the high five and swept the pool for $690. This is why I'm skeptical of such things as a $5 minimum trifecta. The pool will be too small.
If the pool is too small that the bet can carryover, nothing wrong w that.
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Old 05-10-2017, 06:23 PM   #18
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Generalized statement about betting menus, there are just too many damn options. We need bigger pools. Having 27 different options per race is ridiculous.
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Old 05-10-2017, 06:36 PM   #19
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Generalized statement about betting menus, there are just too many damn options. We need bigger pools. Having 27 different options per race is ridiculous.
Absolutely

Quite a few problems would go away if we concentrated handle on 1/3 of the Tracks we have now.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:05 PM   #20
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Absolutely

Quite a few problems would go away if we concentrated handle on 1/3 of the Tracks we have now.
That is a different argument for a different day. I also think we have too many tracks competing against each other given the small horse population and the trend towards racing horses less.

I'm saying in each race at each track we don't need:

Win
Place
Show
Exacta
Quinella
Trifecta
Superfecta
Daily Double
Pick 3
Pick 4
Pick 5

Pools on each race need to be consolidated. There are simply too many at a lot of tracks. Maybe NYRA and SoCal and a few others can get away with it, but at small tracks it is insane.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:19 PM   #21
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That is a different argument for a different day. I also think we have too many tracks competing against each other given the small horse population and the trend towards racing horses less.

I'm saying in each race at each track we don't need:

Win
Place
Show
Exacta
Quinella
Trifecta
Superfecta
Daily Double
Pick 3
Pick 4
Pick 5

Pools on each race need to be consolidated. There are simply too many at a lot of tracks. Maybe NYRA and SoCal and a few others can get away with it, but at small tracks it is insane.
"Gimmicks" are the only things that the "industry" is willing to try at this stage. No one but the serious bettor seems concerned about the dwindling size of the betting pools; the "recreational" bettors seem satisfied with betting on whatever pool-size they see...as long as the bet is "cheap enough". Reducing the bet-minimums to bargain-basement prices isn't the way to "consolidate" the betting action. It does exactly the OPPOSITE...encouraging the bettor to spread his bets in different pools even more than he would normally do.

The tracks know that the "middle class" of horseplayers is on the verge of extinction...and they now cater to the two opposing extremes. The BIG BETTORS, who crave rebates...and the SMALL BETTORS, who will bet only when the bet-sizes are at the minimum level.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:22 PM   #22
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As a weekend clerk I can tell you that the biggest complaint we get every Derby day is the absence of the ten cent super. I easily heard it 25 times at my window last Saturday. I believe lower base bets are what the majority of fans want. Twenty cent pick fours on harness, Australian racing and at most Canadian tracks are also very popular.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:25 PM   #23
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As a weekend clerk I can tell you that the biggest complaint we get every Derby day is the absence of the ten cent super. I easily heard it 25 times at my window last Saturday. I believe lower base bets are what the majority of fans want. Twenty cent pick fours on harness, Australian racing and at most Canadian tracks are also very popular.
Yes...the majority of the fans want the 10-cent super...when the fields are competitive and full. But the vast majority of the weekday cards today are dominated by the noncompetitive 5 and 6-horse fields. And offering a 10-cent super on these fields is BEYOND ridiculous.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:30 PM   #24
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Agreed, at one time you had to have 8 horses running in Cali to have a super. Now it is just six entered so even if they scratch down to four you still have one.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:40 PM   #25
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Why does it have to go to such extremes? $1 might be steep for some .10 is a joke....sooooo what about all the space in between? .50 supers at mnr seem to pay well...same thing with the pick 6..why is it $2 or .20? Keeneland seems to do just fine with a $1 pick 6..should be a nice mix for all bettors but tracks simply follow in lockstep with each other if they see anything even remotely successful....im not a fan of the cheapo bets or jackpot bets
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:24 PM   #26
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Why does it have to go to such extremes? $1 might be steep for some .10 is a joke....sooooo what about all the space in between? .50 supers at mnr seem to pay well...same thing with the pick 6..why is it $2 or .20? Keeneland seems to do just fine with a $1 pick 6..should be a nice mix for all bettors but tracks simply follow in lockstep with each other if they see anything even remotely successful....im not a fan of the cheapo bets or jackpot bets
I agree they need to make supers harder to hit, selecting the 'top 4' shouldn't be easier than selecting the top3
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:37 PM   #27
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Why does it have to go to such extremes? $1 might be steep for some .10 is a joke....sooooo what about all the space in between? .50 supers at mnr seem to pay well...same thing with the pick 6..why is it $2 or .20? Keeneland seems to do just fine with a $1 pick 6..should be a nice mix for all bettors but tracks simply follow in lockstep with each other if they see anything even remotely successful....im not a fan of the cheapo bets or jackpot bets
There is no reason to have 50 cent tris if you are going to have 10 cent supers. Just play a 10 cent tri with all in the 4th slot and the price is going to be about the same in 90% of the races run in the US. That way you combine the pools, one bigger one as opposed to two smaller ones.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:11 PM   #28
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As a weekend clerk I can tell you that the biggest complaint we get every Derby day is the absence of the ten cent super. I easily heard it 25 times at my window last Saturday. I believe lower base bets are what the majority of fans want. Twenty cent pick fours on harness, Australian racing and at most Canadian tracks are also very popular.
I think the key there is "the majority of fans." Of course the majority of people would also be happy if a Big Mac cost a dollar and soda machines were a quarter. It is possible to actually calculate pricing that would maximize handle (which would maximize profit) and that is where the minimums should be set. Asking your average low-handle bettor where to set minimums wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of those bettors or racing.

I remember once at Saratoga two older guys are talking and one of the guys says he bet a 10-cent superfecta. He shows his friend his ticket and sure enough he had one 10-cent superfecta. Now if you ask that guy he'd be very supportive of the 10-cent superfecta, especially considering he could bet every race that day for less than he paid to get into the track.
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Old 05-10-2017, 10:19 PM   #29
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I think the key there is "the majority of fans." Of course the majority of people would also be happy if a Big Mac cost a dollar and soda machines were a quarter. It is possible to actually calculate pricing that would maximize handle (which would maximize profit) and that is where the minimums should be set. Asking your average low-handle bettor where to set minimums wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of those bettors or racing.

I remember once at Saratoga two older guys are talking and one of the guys says he bet a 10-cent superfecta. He shows his friend his ticket and sure enough he had one 10-cent superfecta. Now if you ask that guy he'd be very supportive of the 10-cent superfecta, especially considering he could bet every race that day for less than he paid to get into the track.
The dime super does not work well on BIG DAYS...too many casual fans do not know how to bet and use the machines...it is a nightmare waiting for the nice persons to carefully decide what to bet at the window, then hesitantly punch in 1 dollar's worth of dime supers one by one...it just doesn't work when there are lots of fans present...

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Old 05-10-2017, 10:22 PM   #30
HalvOnHorseracing
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The dime super does not work well on BIG DAYS...too many casual fans do not know how to bet and use the machines...it is a nightmare waiting for the nice person carefully decide what to bet at the window, then hesitantly punch in 1 dollar's worth of dime supers one by one...it just doesn't work when there are lots of fans present...
Oh the stories I could tell about the oblivious at the betting machines.
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