Where did all the horses go?

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Centralizing power only ever makes things worse. So I don't see a central body solving things

The bottom line is you need to make it worth one's time and money to be a horse owner, a bettor or a jockey/trainer/stable worker

If you only make it worthwhile for one of these 3 groups then the whole thing collapses

As far as the Hong Kong model goes, well HK is dependent on all the other countries supplying them with horses, jockeys and trainers. If the other racing countries go bust then HK and Singapore go bust too. Hong Kong racing is not self sufficient which is a huge weakness in its model

[rastajenk]

This thread is disappointing. So many people purporting to love racing, who grew to love it in its current format, now trying to kill it with excessive control.

In a time when the president was elected to roll back federal control of our lives, you want more federal control. When one asks if we really need this or that, it sounds like Bernie Sanders asking if we really need yachts and 23 kinds of deodorant, when what we really need is a federal agency to tell us what we really need. Tossing around words like Control so cavalierly smells a lot like fascism to me. Will there be any politics involved in forming and maintaining a Central Committee? NO! shout the naive and gullible. It will be all about efficiency, and rapid response to customer demands!

Contraction will run off the small timers and good people that make racing such an egalitarian, humbling and enjoyable experience, but the super-trainers and all the other evils will survive and be concentrated in fewer places. I agree fully with Lambo that contraction will increase the rate of the death spiral; when you tell thousands of horse owners their services will not be needed anymore, they're not just taking their horses home to turn out somewhere, they're taking their own handle and their friends' interest and handle. Yet some are led to believe that will lead to growth.

One can't compare major league sports franchises to racetracks. They must be compared to the thousands of horse owners, each with their own business plans, who currently are free to ship to wherever their horses fit, as water finds its own level. But a competent Racing Czar can herd those cats, we are to assume.

This entire thread is predicated on the notion that there is a huge amount of money on the sidelines just waiting for the right combination of ethical animal welfare, full fields, low take, technological savvy and marketing skill to get it back in the game. Where is the evidence for that?

If you want to nationalize racing, you must nationalize the handle. If NYRA, for example, is sucking all the wagers away from smaller businesses, they should be expected to give some back. Spread out the best horses and the best jockeys, and let other regions enjoy building some local favoritism.

It is often assumed that horseplayers are an against-the-grain lot, but most of what I read on here is a lockstep reliance on "Studies say.." and "Experts agree...", not to mention the old standby "Racing management is so stupid..." I grow weary of it.

I could go on and on, just based on this thread alone, but I must start my day, and go out and save racing from itself.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

This thread is disappointing. So many people purporting to love racing, who grew to love it in its current format, now trying to kill it with excessive control.

In a time when the president was elected to roll back federal control of our lives, you want more federal control. When one asks if we really need this or that, it sounds like Bernie Sanders asking if we really need yachts and 23 kinds of deodorant, when what we really need is a federal agency to tell us what we really need. Tossing around words like Control so cavalierly smells a lot like fascism to me. Will there be any politics involved in forming and maintaining a Central Committee? NO! shout the naive and gullible. It will be all about efficiency, and rapid response to customer demands!

Contraction will run off the small timers and good people that make racing such an egalitarian, humbling and enjoyable experience, but the super-trainers and all the other evils will survive and be concentrated in fewer places. I agree fully with Lambo that contraction will increase the rate of the death spiral; when you tell thousands of horse owners their services will not be needed anymore, they're not just taking their horses home to turn out somewhere, they're taking their own handle and their friends' interest and handle. Yet some are led to believe that will lead to growth.

One can't compare major league sports franchises to racetracks. They must be compared to the thousands of horse owners, each with their own business plans, who currently are free to ship to wherever their horses fit, as water finds its own level. But a competent Racing Czar can herd those cats, we are to assume.

This entire thread is predicated on the notion that there is a huge amount of money on the sidelines just waiting for the right combination of ethical animal welfare, full fields, low take, technological savvy and marketing skill to get it back in the game. Where is the evidence for that?

If you want to nationalize racing, you must nationalize the handle. If NYRA, for example, is sucking all the wagers away from smaller businesses, they should be expected to give some back. Spread out the best horses and the best jockeys, and let other regions enjoy building some local favoritism.

It is often assumed that horseplayers are an against-the-grain lot, but most of what I read on here is a lockstep reliance on "Studies say.." and "Experts agree...", not to mention the old standby "Racing management is so stupid..." I grow weary of it.

I could go on and on, just based on this thread alone, but I must start my day, and go out and save racing from itself.

Do you wager...or do you only pontificate?

Have you noticed that the game is virtually UNPLAYABLE from Monday to Thursday?

[pandy]

Why are the purses so low at Mountaineer? Doesn't anyone go to the casino?
Evangeline Downs and Indiana Grand seem to have plenty of horses, but they have higher purses.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Steady decline over the years. Looks like the average purse in 2015 was just under $15k. Interesting to see the decline since this state was the one that started the whole racino thing.

[ultracapper]

You can't forget about the value of the property many of these tracks sit on either. It seems many track ownership groups are doing just the minimum needed to keep racing going until they can either get the political leverage to close down and sell, or are waiting for a key person or two to pass away, and then sell out. Longacres virtually closed upon the death of founder Joe Gottstein's widow, Luella, passing away. The Alhadeffs couldn't get into Boeing's boardroom quick enough after Mrs. Gottstein's death.

[ultracapper]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

This thread is disappointing. So many people purporting to love racing, who grew to love it in its current format, now trying to kill it with excessive control.

In a time when the president was elected to roll back federal control of our lives, you want more federal control. When one asks if we really need this or that, it sounds like Bernie Sanders asking if we really need yachts and 23 kinds of deodorant, when what we really need is a federal agency to tell us what we really need. Tossing around words like Control so cavalierly smells a lot like fascism to me. Will there be any politics involved in forming and maintaining a Central Committee? NO! shout the naive and gullible. It will be all about efficiency, and rapid response to customer demands!

Contraction will run off the small timers and good people that make racing such an egalitarian, humbling and enjoyable experience, but the super-trainers and all the other evils will survive and be concentrated in fewer places. I agree fully with Lambo that contraction will increase the rate of the death spiral; when you tell thousands of horse owners their services will not be needed anymore, they're not just taking their horses home to turn out somewhere, they're taking their own handle and their friends' interest and handle. Yet some are led to believe that will lead to growth.

One can't compare major league sports franchises to racetracks. They must be compared to the thousands of horse owners, each with their own business plans, who currently are free to ship to wherever their horses fit, as water finds its own level. But a competent Racing Czar can herd those cats, we are to assume.

This entire thread is predicated on the notion that there is a huge amount of money on the sidelines just waiting for the right combination of ethical animal welfare, full fields, low take, technological savvy and marketing skill to get it back in the game. Where is the evidence for that?

If you want to nationalize racing, you must nationalize the handle. If NYRA, for example, is sucking all the wagers away from smaller businesses, they should be expected to give some back. Spread out the best horses and the best jockeys, and let other regions enjoy building some local favoritism.

It is often assumed that horseplayers are an against-the-grain lot, but most of what I read on here is a lockstep reliance on "Studies say.." and "Experts agree...", not to mention the old standby "Racing management is so stupid..." I grow weary of it.

I could go on and on, just based on this thread alone, but I must start my day, and go out and save racing from itself.

A well run centralized body is the solution. As poorly and corruptly as the NYRA is managed, it's still the best product out there. Can you imagine if it were run efficiently with sincere purpose? It would be the model for all to follow.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by ultracapper

A well run centralized body is the solution. As poorly and corruptly as the NYRA is managed, it's still the best product out there. Can you imagine if it were run efficiently with sincere purpose? It would be the model for all to follow.

I know you're being sincere, but if you're talking about a national centralized body, what possible reason would anyone have to believe that could do better than our current situation? Who is giving this "centralized body" control over all of these independently owned and operated entities? Who picks who runs this "centralized body"?

The two comparisons I keep seeing are the four major sports and Hong Kong. Well, I can own a major league team but I need at least most of the rest of the teams to have games and a league. There is no horse racing "league". The tracks are often separate entities even in the same state, and the participants are also owned by individuals. So that doesn't work.

And the second is Hong Kong. As Halvonhorseracing broke down well and as I and others have explained many times, Hong Kong owns all the gambling in the country and runs two tracks at a time. To picture how far away this is from our system, we'd have to give the federal government control of two tracks, shut down ALL of the others, and then give the feds control of EVERY state lottery and private casino in the country too. Do you think that group might be profitable? Well those are the resources Hong Kong horse racing has. Then some here bow before them and praise the "clean game" they run. Yeah, it's JUST like the American system, we'll just switch right over to a tiny, government-run horse racing industry.

I wish I had an answer. But these two aren't it.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

44 horses running in the 9 races combined at Mountaineer Park tonight (4.89 horses per race). Two four horse races and two three horse races and the other five are six runners each.

I wish I could think of a good analogy. Maybe if you were to go to the poker room and faced off against one other player in Texas Hold 'Em.

Never thought I'd see the day when you classified a field of six as a "full field". By the way, why do horses constantly scratch from certain tracks and not at others. You can set your watch to the fact that Mountaineer Park will scratch between 20% and 30% of the horses listed in the program on race day. Why?

Ill explain a few things that cause those scratches when I can, pal. Just too busy right now. we actually closed entries this afternoon..so i must prepare for tonite's show. Hope all is well.

[menifee]

Originally Posted by castaway01

I know you're being sincere, but if you're talking about a national centralized body, what possible reason would anyone have to believe that could do better than our current situation? Who is giving this "centralized body" control over all of these independently owned and operated entities? Who picks who runs this "centralized body"?

The two comparisons I keep seeing are the four major sports and Hong Kong. Well, I can own a major league team but I need at least most of the rest of the teams to have games and a league. There is no horse racing "league". The tracks are often separate entities even in the same state, and the participants are also owned by individuals. So that doesn't work.

And the second is Hong Kong. As Halvonhorseracing broke down well and as I and others have explained many times, Hong Kong owns all the gambling in the country and runs two tracks at a time. To picture how far away this is from our system, we'd have to give the federal government control of two tracks, shut down ALL of the others, and then give the feds control of EVERY state lottery and private casino in the country too. Do you think that group might be profitable? Well those are the resources Hong Kong horse racing has. Then some here bow before them and praise the "clean game" they run. Yeah, it's JUST like the American system, we'll just switch right over to a tiny, government-run horse racing industry.

I wish I had an answer. But these two aren't it.

I thought I explained this above. As with state racing commissions, there could be a federal racing commission. Congress could give control because they ultimately control legislation regarding simulcasting. The tracks could opt out, but then they could not take in wagers from other states. They would not survive. The executive branch could appoint the commission. There are 100s of federal commissions in the United States.

Racing is controlled by the government right now. It's just done at the state level. State legislatures/gaming commissions set minimums for racing days, takeout rates, rules, etc. What is the issue with consolidating that power into one nationalized commission? I'm a small government proponent, but there are 50 different state racing commission managing racing in the United States. Wouldn't it be more efficient and better for the customer and the horse if that power were consolidated?

[Track Phantom]

Thanks Mark. I know it's a tough situation and working with a short deck. I wish you and all of the people at MNR the best of luck. I've supported MNR for years with my wagering dollars and continue to do so. As the product improves and the races become more intriguing, my handle will rise up with it.

[elhelmete]

Going back for a moment to PA's initial post regarding Santa Anita...thought I'd share a couple things to illustrate the complexity of the problem.

Let's put aside for a moment the effect of takeout increases in California, which IMHO were ill-advised and poorly sold...but I digress...

So many thoughts and comments here on what would fix racing, and suggestions that "NOBODY DOES THIS!! EVERYONE IS STUPID!!" which many seem to agree with. So let me give you my Santa Anita experience.

1) It's gorgeous. Physically, it's an amazing place to spend a day, indoors or out. Love him or hate him, Uncle Frank whips out his checkbook a lot upgrading this joint.

2) Good food, reasonable $ for SoCal and lots of options.

3) Clean.

4) Just getting a player's card (free) I can get free clubhouse admission and free parking for probably 75% of the calendar. Thursdays and Fridays are already free general admission and parking, IIRC.

5) On weekends there are free handicapping seminars and pleasant, suit-jacketed wagering docents all over the place. If they see you staring at your program they will approach you and offer help.

6) Always stuff for the kids in the infield on weekends.

7) Tons of non-racing events throughout the year, car shows, chili cook-offs, Asian food fairs, wine tasting, craft beer festivals, bands, Easter egg hunts, I could go on and on.

8) OK, I'll be a little crass...hot chicks on weekends. No, it's not opening day at DMR, but there's some eye candy.

So nobody can say that Santa Anita at least hasn't tried these things that many of you say "NEVER GET TRIED!!! EVERYONE IS DUMB!!!"

...and yet...they can't fill cards.

I'll write more later from my perspective as a partnership owner/member.

[cj]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

Going back for a moment to PA's initial post regarding Santa Anita...thought I'd share a couple things to illustrate the complexity of the problem.

Let's put aside for a moment the effect of takeout increases in California, which IMHO were ill-advised and poorly sold...but I digress...

So many thoughts and comments here on what would fix racing, and suggestions that "NOBODY DOES THIS!! EVERYONE IS STUPID!!" which many seem to agree with. So let me give you my Santa Anita experience.

1) It's gorgeous. Physically, it's an amazing place to spend a day, indoors or out. Love him or hate him, Uncle Frank whips out his checkbook a lot upgrading this joint.

2) Good food, reasonable $ for SoCal and lots of options.

3) Clean.

4) Just getting a player's card (free) I can get free clubhouse admission and free parking for probably 75% of the calendar. Thursdays and Fridays are already free general admission and parking, IIRC.

5) On weekends there are free handicapping seminars and pleasant, suit-jacketed wagering docents all over the place. If they see you staring at your program they will approach you and offer help.

6) Always stuff for the kids in the infield on weekends.

7) Tons of non-racing events throughout the year, car shows, chili cook-offs, Asian food fairs, wine tasting, craft beer festivals, bands, Easter egg hunts, I could go on and on.

8) OK, I'll be a little crass...hot chicks on weekends. No, it's not opening day at DMR, but there's some eye candy.

So nobody can say that Santa Anita at least hasn't tried these things that many of you say "NEVER GET TRIED!!! EVERYONE IS DUMB!!!"

...and yet...they can't fill cards.

I'll write more later from my perspective as a partnership owner/member.

All of that is great, but until they start putting out a product that is good for bettors, it is putting a band aid on a water break. Fields are too short and many noncompetitive and takeout is too high. You can fool people for a little while, but they figure out something is a bad bet pretty quickly.

Don't get me wrong here. I've loved Santa Anita the few times I've went. But that doesn't get people to bet. It used to be my favorite track to play via simulcast. Those days are long gone.

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by cj

All of that is great, but until they start putting out a product that is good for bettors, it is putting a band aid on a water break. Fields are too short and many noncompetitive and takeout is too high. You can fool people for a little while, but they figure out something is a bad bet pretty quickly.

Don't get me wrong here. I've loved Santa Anita the few times I've went. But that doesn't get people to bet. It used to be my favorite track to play via simulcast. Those days are long gone.

I totally agree. I was just pointing out that SA does a lot of things that many posters here claim no racetrack does. They do it in spades. And still they're decaying. California racing is, IMHO, a case study in what can doom a racing jurisdiction.

Everything feeds on everything else:
High cost of ownership...
Not enough horses overall...
"Your" horse only runs every six weeks (maybe)...
Short fields...
High cost of living overall...
No temporary relief from slot $ (note how I phrased that)...

[Andy Asaro]

When was the last time anyone did anything for the long term in California Racing?

Even though Hollywood Park was on the verge of closing for years they were caught flat footed when it did close. The long term solution would have been for the Stronach Group to make a deal with the Agricultural district so Pomona could put in a one mile turf or a mile and one eighth turf course (for Training and to run live races a few times per year) with a 7 furlong dirt course inside ala Woodbine. Would have been a great place to put a state of the art Vet Clinic (because of the L.A. county fair) that would have been great public relations. And 2000 stalls. But noooooooooooooooo.

Jim Henwood jerked California Racing off for years and not one of these so called "Experts" did any due diligence on him. Read the article below.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...330-story.html

Liebau was for Los Alamitos (which is a short term solution), so was the TOC and Mike Pegram, and so was Brackpool among others. The California Trainers Group was for Pomona and so was Del Mar. As usual the politically connected won out and true to form did the wrong thing by not pursuing Pomona.

In short they are resigned to going out of business IMO cuz of what they're not doing.