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Old 06-24-2016, 01:01 PM   #76
classhandicapper
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Originally Posted by the little guy
Yeah, owners are pretty much in the game to get minor checks. They love to take Loser's Circle photos with their friends. You really nailed this one....as usual.
For your information, I own a small piece of a few horses that are running at NYRA these days. Unlike you, I am speaking from personal experience.

Not too long ago one of my horses was facing a 1-2 shot I knew I had very little chance of beating. My horse has good speed, but I was sitting comfortably in 3rd with the favorite loose on the lead. That's exactly where I wanted to be. I wanted no part of that favorite. If we were going to beat him, he'd come back to us. The rider chose to go after the favorite. He used his speed and made a somewhat premature move to the leader. At that very moment I had 2 thoughts.

1. I hope he goes right by (I already knew he wouldn't because the favorite look loaded)

2. We just blew our chance for 2nd money

The end result was that he blew 2nd by a nose. He used the horse in a futile attempt to beat a vastly superior animal that put us away and drew off. Some inferior horse sucked up to beat us and cost us about 5K.

After the race I spoke to one of the other owners and told him I was happy with the performance, but that we blew second with an overly aggressive ride. Both he and the trainer concurred. I wasn't mad or anything. The rider did what he thought was best. It was a simple evaluation of the performance.

But when you know you don't have the best horse and you are pretty sure you can't win, you DO think in terms of taking advantage of the likely setup to pick up a check and not in terms of committing suicide because some handicapper you may disagree with thinks you should have gone.

Next time we took him back and he won. I got my picture taken with all my friends. But I still think our bank account is 5K short of what it should be.
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Old 06-24-2016, 06:11 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper
... Not too long ago one of my horses was facing a 1-2 shot I knew I had very little chance of beating. My horse has good speed, but I was sitting comfortably in 3rd with the favorite loose on the lead. That's exactly where I wanted to be. I wanted no part of that favorite. If we were going to beat him, he'd come back to us. The rider chose to go after the favorite. He used his speed and made a somewhat premature move to the leader. At that very moment I had 2 thoughts.

1. I hope he goes right by (I already knew he wouldn't because the favorite look loaded)

2. We just blew our chance for 2nd money

The end result was that he blew 2nd by a nose. He used the horse in a futile attempt to beat a vastly superior animal that put us away and drew off. Some inferior horse sucked up to beat us and cost us about 5K.

After the race I spoke to one of the other owners and told him I was happy with the performance, but that we blew second with an overly aggressive ride. Both he and the trainer concurred. I wasn't mad or anything. The rider did what he thought was best. It was a simple evaluation of the performance.

But when you know you don't have the best horse and you are pretty sure you can't win, you DO think in terms of taking advantage of the likely setup to pick up a check and not in terms of committing suicide because some handicapper you may disagree with thinks you should have gone.

Next time we took him back and he won. I got my picture taken with all my friends. But I still think our bank account is 5K short of what it should be.
You sort of disproved a point of some on here that jockeys aren't trying. As you noted he probably did make a premature move. It was a split decision which you win sometimes and lose other times. Your observation is basically 20/20 hindsight. If your horse won, you'd be posting it differently.
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Old 06-24-2016, 06:17 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate
... The game needs to improve its image, and just the appearance of a conflict of interest/collusion is hurting the handle. We know it's an insider's game, but as horseplayers we don't need our noses rubbed in it.

But like every other aspect to improving racing, the climb for improvement seems to be up a very steep hill.
I agree that " the appearance of a conflict of interest/collusion" needs to be avoided and fines assessed.

How about if the jockeys, trainers, vets and owners sign a no collusion agreement before each and every race then if it's proven otherwise .... we've got them in writing?

Simple and shouldn't be expensive to implement.
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Old 06-24-2016, 06:29 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
...
How about if the jockeys, trainers, vets and owners sign a no collusion agreement before each and every race then if it's proven otherwise .... we've got them in writing?

Simple and shouldn't be expensive to implement.
They've got it in writing on the licensing form that each of them signed. Even simpler and cheaper.
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Old 06-24-2016, 06:35 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
You sort of disproved a point of some on here that jockeys aren't trying. As you noted he probably did make a premature move. It was a split decision which you win sometimes and lose other times. Your observation is basically 20/20 hindsight. If your horse won, you'd be posting it differently.
What allows you to say that to Class? You're inability to decipher between post position and program #? The fact that you don't know the difference shows how much you actually even know about this game. Not knocking you for it but please don't act like some sort of knowledgeable pro.

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Old 06-24-2016, 06:51 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by EMD4ME
What allows you to say that to Class? You're inability to decipher between post position and program #? The fact that you don't know the difference shows how much you actually even know about this game. Not knocking you for it but please don't act like some sort of knowledgeable pro.


I know you don't comprehend the written word very well but, what are you ranting about?

You need to re-read that other thread and learn to STFU!!
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:09 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
I know you don't comprehend the written word very well but, what are you ranting about?

You need to re-read that other thread and learn to STFU!!
I was about to end my last post to you with:

I'm sure you will reply with some allegation that "I can't comprehend" or some other incoherent/irrelevant banter.

You take the liberty to knock me and pound on me as the 98th guy on the pile, what's the matter? Simple truth hurts when it's thrown at you?

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Old 06-24-2016, 07:12 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith
They've got it in writing on the licensing form that each of them signed. Even simpler and cheaper.
Didn't know that but, my suggestion was if they did it for every race entered, it would be a a current reminder that they're not supposed to engage in collusion or conflict of interest. Not that it should be necessary. Signing a clause years prior, they can always claim they forgot it was there.
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:16 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by EMD4ME
I was about to end my last post to you with:

I'm sure you will reply with some allegation that "I can't comprehend" or some other incoherent/irrelevant banter.

You take the liberty to knock me and pound on me as the 98th guy on the pile, what's the matter? Simple truth hurts when it's thrown at you?
Did you re-read my post in that other thread?

You really need to think about what you write before you hit submit. Or, better yet just don't hit submit until you learn to read.
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:18 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
.... Signing a clause years prior, they can always claim they forgot it was there.
If that were the case there'd never be a ruling based on the rule book. It's simple, it is your responsibility as a licensee to know and abide by the rules. Among the responsibilities is that you must always enter with the intent of winning or ride for the best placing as the case may be. Almost every place has a prohibited acts section that deals with any sort of nefarious collusion between entrants just to cover all the bases.
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:49 PM   #86
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If that were the case there'd never be a ruling based on the rule book. It's simple, it is your responsibility as a licensee to know and abide by the rules. Among the responsibilities is that you must always enter with the intent of winning or ride for the best placing as the case may be. Almost every place has a prohibited acts section that deals with any sort of nefarious collusion between entrants just to cover all the bases.

This was always my understanding and I have read something similar for Cali racing. And, yet all these threads and posts about jockey collusion and conflict of interest.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:00 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
... And, yet all these threads and posts about jockey collusion and conflict of interest.
I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. Obviously it does and has since the days before threads on the internet.

I just fail to see what signing a piece of paper that restates what you've already pledged as a licensee would do. If it happens without it despite an existing rule that states the same and it isn't caught now or goes unenforced now, then what would cause it to be enforced in that case? Why would it stop anyone? Maybe if it bound all of the licensee's earthly possessions as collateral or something it might get someone's attention that it wouldn't otherwise, but I'm thinking that would set the bar even higher than it is now in terms of the burden of proof to take action, which would probably make it counterproductive at worse and window dressing at best.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:35 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
You sort of disproved a point of some on here that jockeys aren't trying. As you noted he probably did make a premature move. It was a split decision which you win sometimes and lose other times. Your observation is basically 20/20 hindsight. If your horse won, you'd be posting it differently.
He was clearly trying. No doubt about it.

If the horse won, my view would have been that the favorite did not fire his "A" race and we won despite making an unnecessary aggressive move that could have cost us. Literally the very second he started asking the horse I thought it was a mistake. But I'd be willing to bet that some people thought he should have gone and tried to "take it" to the favorite right from the start because that was the only way to beat him. IMO, it wasn't the only way to beat him. It was the only way to blow 3rd too. (By the way I did the math wrong. It cost us 10K).
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Old 06-24-2016, 10:39 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Hard2Like
Loser at Aqu = Race Fixin Cheaters
Winning at Bel = Everybody on the up and up
I'd say you're the 6-warm beer OTB guy but you've made it very clear how you are actually a hardcore real horseplayer. The kind that hangs on the rail and tells the jockeys to their face what a bunch of crooks they are. Kudos, really.

The replay you've suggested to watch is a seven horse maiden sprint on a fast track that favored the inside. The inside horse went to the lead and won. All I got out of it was that I watch replays differently than you do.

Your true video skills, even more so than the incredible ability to mind-read jockey intentions through race replays, may be your ability to embed video in your PA post, so you got that goin for ya.

Favors-Screw jobs-Collusion-Chosen winner-Let's make it look good drives-Not trying to win
Allow me to be the a******. I call BS. It all reads like SOUR GRAPES.
Certainly funny and entertainingly descriptive reading, no doubt,but it's sour grapes all the same.

Your zest and passion for our sport is plenty evident. The constant and
seemingly paranoia driven incessant complaining about perceived shenanigans is incredible.
I refuse to take your accusations seriously. It's just too much, all the time.
Wow....You're the guy at the charity scramble golf outing that goes around checking to make sure no one has more than 14 clubs in their bag....
Please relax. we may chat about serious subjects, but this is a place where come to kick back and enjoy....
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:52 PM   #90
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The only thing missing in this thread is thegoofontheroof.... he must be seriously looking for a gig.. seen he has toned it down here
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