Too friendly NYRA Riding Colony

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

I have noticed one thing lately, that is, if you count the number of "jocks in today," in other words, how many jocks will be covering every mount in 9 or 10 races, it's often fewer than 20 "bodies," suggesting a very closed fraternity/sorority of riders, thus allowing for the possibility of more skullduggery.

Familiarity breeds complicity.

I'm confused....how many riders do you think are normally in a riding colony?

If we run nine races a day and even average eight horses a race, that would be 3.6 mounts a day for a colony of 20. Seems like a fairly large group to me. Given that, at most, ten to 12 are solid, how many bad fringe riders do you need....and how does having extra fringe riders somehow make things less honest?

If instead of people wasting time on these kinds of grassy knoll threads, people spent their time studying the pps, or whatever method they use for handicapping, they would do themselves far more good.

[fmolf]

my personal feeling is if people really truly feel this way...Why are you throwing money away by wagering on what you are basically calling fixed races!.....I personally believe that the owners would not use the services of any jockey they thought was in collusion with a competing trainer or owner.I believe this already would have come to light in todays society under the microscope we live in.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I just bet what the guys on the NYRA feed like so I have ample time to play Warren Commission.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

I just bet what the guys on the NYRA feed like so I have ample time to play Warren Commission.

You also must be so rich that you can afford to hire the very best detectives.

[SuperPickle]

Here's what I don't get about this...

EMD and SRU has made this accusation in other threads. They're quick to point out these two guys are brothers. But here's the thing I don't get. So what?

Racing is massively incestous. Everyone is related to everyone else. Everyone dates everyone else. Everyone marries everyone else.

When jockeys get married half the time they either marry another jockey or a trainers daughter/sister. Johnny V. is married to Leo O'Briens daughter. Joe Talamo is married to Ron Ellis's daughter. The Gaudet girl used to date Sheldon Russell and now dates Casse' son. Brian Hernandez is married to a trainers daughter.

Everyone is related to everyone in horse racing. I'm pretty sure every jockey in Louisiana is related. This is not news.

And in terms of video tape i can show you video the Ortiz brothers finished 1-2 in less a half length five times for every time you can show me something you think is fishy.

Do you want to know the great angle in terms of betting them. When one of them is out of town and other gets on a horse the out of town one usually rides instead of a horse he rides. That's an angle.

We're back to the line of thinking that there's a corpse so clearly there's a murder.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by the little guy

I'm confused....how many riders do you think are normally in a riding colony?

If we run nine races a day and even average eight horses a race, that would be 3.6 mounts a day for a colony of 20. Seems like a fairly large group to me. Given that, at most, ten to 12 are solid, how many bad fringe riders do you need....and how does having extra fringe riders somehow make things less honest?

If instead of people wasting time on these kinds of grassy knoll threads, people spent their time studying the pps, or whatever method they use for handicapping, they would do themselves far more good.

"Grassy knoll threads".....
Perfect!!! Well said..
Not to throw anyone under the bus or be personal in any way, when I see stuff like this, my initial reaction is "oy vey".....And I then move on
Anyway...Got a chuckle out of the above.

[Hard2Like]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

I've turned some heavy hitters (At NYRA) on to wagering at Emerald Downs the past few years.

---Kiner? Kingman? Jackson? Piazza, maybe?

I'm going to quote some amazing words that were said:

Holy Sheet, look at these guys ride from the gate!!

Wow, there isn't a single horse being pulled or grabbed at all day!!!

Is that what an all out hell bent duel is???

Look at the aggression with which these guys ride with!

Yes, indeed. Much like these unfortunates who obviously didn't see you coming, I too would immediately pander to you and say whatever you wanted to hear in hopes you would leave immediately

Not saying NYRA doesn't have this, not NYRA bashing. However, as a dedicated NYRA follower, I expect a top quality product and quite honestly, I have not had any complaints about the Belmont meet. I have seen mostly hard/competitive rides with very few, if any, shenanigans.

But it goes to show you just how much the product has almost desensitized even the most hardcore of players ($500K-$2MM a year in handle). These players were INVIGORATED while watching a race at Emerald Downs, as opposed to a NYRA race.

---The ones that lobby for Hi-Def replays, am I right?

I say this as there has to reach a point where NYRA protects their product. Watching 3 relatives who live together and ride together (with others very close to them-Cornelio/Javier/Angel Cruz last year) is not what a true horseplayer wants to see day in and day out.

---Not even close to what I'd call ya

It's just too friendly out there.

Yes, I am speaking about PRIOR performance. Not recent performance as I have had no issues in the past 2 months with the race riding (for the most part).

In any game with money involved, integrity is paramount.

---Wu Tang is for the children, I already know

I've missed you, man.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I'm one of those handicappers who believes it is 90% horse, 10% jockey. That's not to say the jockey doesn't give good rides or poor ones, but I subscribe to the thought that the jockey rarely will cause a horse that isn't competitive to begin with to lose, and slightly more commonly a horse that is the best in the race losing due to a bad ride. As often as not the horse creates its own trouble, especially at the gate, and the jockey is tasked with overcoming it. I've been with trainers unsaddling a horse where the jockey said the horse simply refused to be ridden the way the trainer instructed. Sometimes a jockey is not aggressive enough with a speed horse, sometimes the horse just isn't up to gunning to the front. Sometimes a jockey is looking to save ground and gets blocked, sometimes the jockey says go and the horse says no. It's a truism that the best jockeys get the best horses and vice versa.

I'll pay attention to rider switches, especially if it is a lesser trainer engaging a top rider, or I'll note races where a jockey has his choice of horses which one he ends up on.

I spent a lot of years handicapping small tracks - I made tons of money at the old Centennial Racetrack and at Arapahoe Park when their handle was big enough that a $20 win bet wouldn't skew the win pool - and I rarely gave the jockey a second thought. With all due respect to Emerald Downs, the jockeys at the secondary tracks are simply not nearly as good as the riders at the "A" tracks, and if they were that good they wouldn't be at the "B" or "C" tracks, and that is regardless of how one perceives how hard they are riding a horse. And the horses they are riding reflect the level of racing at the track.

Russell Baze may have been the king of NorCal, but he was at best a prince in SoCal. Same with Joe Bravo at Monmouth. He could ride at Saratoga but he was never going to be a leading rider.

Lately I've had a number of winning meets at the NYRA tracks (I post my selections daily) and I still pay little attention to who is riding my horse. Even if you have video, what you don't know without talking to the jockey is how the horse impacted the ride or how the trainer instructions influenced how the jockey rode the horse. And the other critical piece is that you have to believe the incestuous "conspiracy" extends beyond the jockey families to the stewards and perhaps other racing officials who are watching these rides and doing nothing about it.

I'm with JHS. It's an unnecessary discussion without a smoking gun or two. Emerald Downs should feel lucky to have you as a supporter (I've actually been a guest a few times on Joe Withee's Win, Place Show) and it's great that you believe in the integrity of the operation.

[jk3521]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Oh yes, I'll write to Cuomo. Yeah that will help LOL....

I took the only actions I could take.

1) I reduced handle big time.

2) I smelled out the collusion races and cashed along

No other options.

Could you let some of us guy know when a "collusion race " comes up so we could cash along?

[whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by the little guy

I'm confused....how many riders do you think are normally in a riding colony?

If we run nine races a day and even average eight horses a race, that would be 3.6 mounts a day for a colony of 20. Seems like a fairly large group to me. Given that, at most, ten to 12 are solid, how many bad fringe riders do you need....and how does having extra fringe riders somehow make things less honest?

If instead of people wasting time on these kinds of grassy knoll threads, people spent their time studying the pps, or whatever method they use for handicapping, they would do themselves far more good.

This is a very good observation because I think they think there are probably 30 - 50 just waiting around every race day in the jocks room and then afterwards go buy groceries later that day. Or, the trainers are really looking for the one that's 36th on the list to make a score.

Can you imagine the posts on here that something might be suspicious that some unknown trainer is using that 36th ranked jockey and winning?

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Let's play a game.....how many threads can EMD4ME start about the same topic?

By the way, if you think Manny Franco is colluding with the Ortiz brothers, you're just wrong.

I actually heard about the parking lot incident and no I do not think he's colluding with them anymore.

His riding has changed since then and I like it.

What prompted this thread was their suspensions for riding infractions (not collusion) and the Taylor Rice addition to the family. My question as a patron was sincere: when or will nyra ever say we need some more independence in the jocks room for the good of the game?

[no breathalyzer]

Franco is excellent.. if given the horse power ... hate to keep bashing one jockey but if he rode all of Dilly Davis' horses he would of won 3 x's more then he has currently. But jockey don't matter tho . Yesterday i wanted to bet Large on Regulus but decided not to because i knew i would end up getting the bozo ride he ended up given.

[Tall One]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

When the leading trainer calls the leading jock a complete crook, I think it's safe to say I know what I'm talking about.

-I'm assuming we're talking about the same trainer, but if he thinks he's larcenous, then why would he continue to put him on the majority of his live runners?

[coachv30]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

Here's what I don't get about this...

EMD and SRU has made this accusation in other threads. They're quick to point out these two guys are brothers. But here's the thing I don't get. So what?

Racing is massively incestous. Everyone is related to everyone else. Everyone dates everyone else. Everyone marries everyone else.

When jockeys get married half the time they either marry another jockey or a trainers daughter/sister. Johnny V. is married to Leo O'Briens daughter. Joe Talamo is married to Ron Ellis's daughter. The Gaudet girl used to date Sheldon Russell and now dates Casse' son. Brian Hernandez is married to a trainers daughter.

Everyone is related to everyone in horse racing. I'm pretty sure every jockey in Louisiana is related. This is not news.

And in terms of video tape i can show you video the Ortiz brothers finished 1-2 in less a half length five times for every time you can show me something you think is fishy.

Do you want to know the great angle in terms of betting them. When one of them is out of town and other gets on a horse the out of town one usually rides instead of a horse he rides. That's an angle.

We're back to the line of thinking that there's a corpse so clearly there's a murder.

Funny thing is......if you dig deep enough in equine bloodlines, a lot of these horses are related as well

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Tall One

-I'm assuming we're talking about the same trainer, but if he thinks he's larcenous, then why would he continue to put him on the majority of his live runners?

Nope. Not talking about same trainer as this leading trainer has told José : you are a crook who stiffed 7 of my horses. Jose has not touched his horses in 3 1/2 months.