Woodbine’s Leading Trainer: Cheater or Unfairly Accused?

[Zman179]

Very interesting article, it’s quite a good read. Your thoughts?

https://torontosun.com/sports/horse-...ing-their-toll

[biggestal99]

Uses Extracorporeal Shock Wave Therapy.


I avoid McKnight horses like the Plague on the exchange.


horses improve many lengths when they come to him.


horses that are claimed from him are a laying goldmine.


they almost never run the same as when the horse was under his care.


Allan

[cj]

Does it really matter to gamblers? I think worrying about whether a guy is cheating or not is bad for the bottom line. Just be aware of what the trainer is good at (and not so good at) and use that info. The "why" doesn't really matter to us as bettors.

[jk3521]

Originally Posted by cj

Does it really matter to gamblers? I think worrying about whether a guy is cheating or not is bad for the bottom line. Just be aware of what the trainer is good at (and not so good at) and use that info. The "why" doesn't really matter to us as bettors.

Back in the day I used to relish in trying to figure out what Oscar Barrera and Gil Puentes were up to.

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by jk3521

Back in the day I used to relish in trying to figure out what Oscar Barrera and Gil Puentes were up to.

By the summer of 83 were any of Oscar's horses paying anything? Just asking. I remember that well starting to dry up.

[Andy Asaro]

Twitter

[jk3521]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

By the summer of 83 were any of Oscar's horses paying anything? Just asking. I remember that well starting to dry up.

Yeah, but I started watching he and others years before that happened. That was my specialty, watching clever trainers. With trainer stats incorporated in Past Performances, that killed me.

[ultracapper]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

https://twitter.com/DougieSal/status...55237820325888

4X as many didn't run back as won.

Run away. Run away as fast as you can.

[chadk66]

pretty staggering numbers. but I would have to think that in two years if he was doping they would have caught something. Seems strange.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by Zman179

Very interesting article, it’s quite a good read. Your thoughts?

https://torontosun.com/sports/horse-...ing-their-toll

Not sure why it's being presented as a question mark.

McKnight clearly violated the rules when he had multiple horses treated with shockwave therapy within the allowed timeframe (no closer than 96 hours). By the way, in other jurisdictions the cutoff time is 10 days.

There were 3 horses--that the stewards/investigators knew about--treated illegality (i.e., cheating) that had to be scratched. These were only discovered after Woodbine started to conduct surveillance on his barn and even then one of them had to be 'fessed up by McKnight himself. Is it far-fetched to think he was doing this with his other runners?

The treatment is performed by a private veterinarian retained by McKnight. The vet in this case claimed he thought the 96-hour rule was only a "guideline"...I suppose in the same way that a bag of Oreos says 3 cookies is a single serving...but go ahead and down the whole package if you feel like it.

Meanwhile, McKnight put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the vet. Any decision on treatments are made by the vet supposedly. I would call BS on that excuse. Shockwave treatments cost between $350-600 per session. Are we really supposed to believe that McKight--on behalf of his owners--gave the vet carte blanche to go to town--in an illegal fashion, mind you--on his horses without his own input?

It's fair for the article to present a question mark regarding the use of illegal substances--that hasn't been proven here--but to wave off the illegal use of shockwave therapy as a mere misunderstanding or minor infraction is completely irresponsible and suggests a distinct bias on the part of the author.

[chadk66]

I was totally unfamiliar with shockwave therapy. So I did some research on it. I don't understand why it is isn't allowed right up to and including race day. It's really in the same ball park as icing, therapeutic ultrasound, laser treatments, magna wave, etc. That totally baffles me.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by chadk66

I was totally unfamiliar with shockwave therapy. So I did some research on it. I don't understand why it is isn't allowed right up to and including race day. It's really in the same ball park as icing, therapeutic ultrasound, laser treatments, magna wave, etc. That totally baffles me.

Not sure of your sources, but the AAEP has this to say:

In a study funded by the Grayson Foundation at Iowa State University, we found that in the horse, a period of analgesia appears to be present for about four days after treatment.

Anything that imparts a pain-killing effect on a horse should be off limits on the day it is to perform, at the very least. Ideally it wouldn't be allowed for as long as the pain-killing effect lasts. In the case of shock wave therapy, it has been shown to be about 4 days.

Without the ability to perceive pain, the horse is at risk of further injury if asked to perform at full capacity.

...the indications for shock wave therapy would indicate most horses should be on a decreased level of activity while healing.

That is, horses undergoing this therapy should be resting or in light training and not in full work and actively racing.

Shock wave therapy is meant to promote healing over the long term. It is not meant as a pre-race treatment administered as close to the race as the rule allows. That sort of mentality (i.e., throw the kitchen sink at the horse) is one of the reasons this sport gets a (justifiably) bad rap.

[lamboguy]

shocking can have a similar type of effect as tapping. you are not allowed to tap the same day as the race and you shouldn't be allowed to shock the same day either..

anyway, this guy in Canada is taking some kind of an edge to win like that. its just another reason why racing needs a complete overhaul.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Not sure of your sources, but the AAEP has this to say:

In a study funded by the Grayson Foundation at Iowa State University, we found that in the horse, a period of analgesia appears to be present for about four days after treatment.

Anything that imparts a pain-killing effect on a horse should be off limits on the day it is to perform, at the very least. Ideally it wouldn't be allowed for as long as the pain-killing effect lasts. In the case of shock wave therapy, it has been shown to be about 4 days.

Without the ability to perceive pain, the horse is at risk of further injury if asked to perform at full capacity.

...the indications for shock wave therapy would indicate most horses should be on a decreased level of activity while healing.

That is, horses undergoing this therapy should be resting or in light training and not in full work and actively racing.

Shock wave therapy is meant to promote healing over the long term. It is not meant as a pre-race treatment administered as close to the race as the rule allows. That sort of mentality (i.e., throw the kitchen sink at the horse) is one of the reasons this sport gets a (justifiably) bad rap.

I didn't read very much. Just a couple short segments. Didn't dive into it that much. So if they're claiming four days why are they allowing it to be used up to two days out. For all intents and purposes bute does the same then. it's anelgesic.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

shocking can have a similar type of effect as tapping. you are not allowed to tap the same day as the race and you shouldn't be allowed to shock the same day either..

anyway, this guy in Canada is taking some kind of an edge to win like that. its just another reason why racing needs a complete overhaul.

I can see that angle. But tapping is something that benefits the horse for quite a period of time in comparison. Not just for that day. And with tapping you usually don't get results for at least 48 hours. And that's pretty much what I've seen with myself over the years. I've had at least half a dozen cortisone shots. A couple took a couple days. The rest took from two weeks to two months to get good results from.