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Old 05-22-2022, 10:16 AM   #8401
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What is so difficult? You made the absolute statement that "Religion depends on unquestioning belief for its very existence".

I gave one exception among others, i.e., the Catholic Church vis--vis fideism. There are cosmological arguments from Classical philosophy ( Aristotle), to Judaism ( Maimonides), and Islam ( Avicenna), to cite one aspect of natural theology. Another aspect is to consider consciousness, and the unresolved problems it can present for materialism...https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/i...lity/#InteNatu
It's not a matter of difficulty. My question was why should I care what the Catholic Church, or any church, says? I stand by my assertion that "Religion depends on unquestioning belief for its very existence." Any statement of the Catholic Church on this issue is hardly from an unbiased view.
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Old 05-22-2022, 10:20 AM   #8402
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That's nothing more than a handwave to ward off final causes in nature, because per the Early Moderns, final causes couldn't be quantified. Moderns use it to ward off You-Know-Who.

But I'll play along, and state that I was paraphrasing Tallis from memory, quite likely incorrectly inserting "purpose". Substitute "function" if you like...What was the function of consciousness since reproduction was doing fine?
One could also say that about single celled organisms living in the sea. What would be the purpose/function of them becoming fish and eventually crawling out upon the land? There is no "purpose" or goal of evolution.
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Old 05-22-2022, 01:28 PM   #8403
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Yeah, it is true. Greece was only the 5th world empire. Four others preceded Greece. And all those empires had their pantheons of gods, including Greece.
And including Israel.
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Old 05-22-2022, 01:45 PM   #8404
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Big deal. Take up the challenge in 8375. Show us how trustful your fellow man.
You have the cart before the horse. Distrust is not universal. It is learned. A newborn trusts everyone until someone whacks him. Only then does he learn that not everyone has his best interests at heart.

Life forces us to trust some people. A good example is the police. If a cop tells me to do something I'm going to do as he says and ask questions later. Ditto doctors and nurses. Also lawyers. If you get a court appointed attorney you don't get to be choosy. The judge will most likely give your case to some lawyer whom the judge knows needs the work.

And of course you personally trust some guy in the pulpit who holds up a book and tells you that said book holds the secret to eternal life. You trust the claim of witnesses to miracles knowing full well that said witnesses are long dead and so cannot be cross examined.
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Old 05-22-2022, 03:28 PM   #8405
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And including Israel.
Israel was never a world power.
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Old 05-22-2022, 03:39 PM   #8406
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You have the cart before the horse. Distrust is not universal. It is learned. A newborn trusts everyone until someone whacks him. Only then does he learn that not everyone has his best interests at heart.

Life forces us to trust some people. A good example is the police. If a cop tells me to do something I'm going to do as he says and ask questions later. Ditto doctors and nurses. Also lawyers. If you get a court appointed attorney you don't get to be choosy. The judge will most likely give your case to some lawyer whom the judge knows needs the work.

And of course you personally trust some guy in the pulpit who holds up a book and tells you that said book holds the secret to eternal life. You trust the claim of witnesses to miracles knowing full well that said witnesses are long dead and so cannot be cross examined.
If so, it's a universal learning exercise.

And quit with the stupid examples of trusting others. Emergency situations are not everyday occurrences for everyone in the world.

If you trust everyone in the world, leave your house unlocked day and night, home or away. Never lock your car up either.

As far as the bible goes...I trust the book implicitly because I know its Author, personally. The guys in the pulpit are only as good to the extent of their faithfulness to that Author.
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Old 05-22-2022, 06:36 PM   #8407
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Israel was never a world power.
But they did have their pantheon of gods.
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Old 05-22-2022, 06:41 PM   #8408
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If so, it's a universal learning exercise.
Agreed.
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Emergency situations are not everyday occurrences for everyone in the world.
But my experience is that they occur often enough.
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If you trust everyone in the world, ...
I never said I trust everyone in the world.
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Old 05-22-2022, 06:45 PM   #8409
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Agreed.
But my experience is that they occur often enough.
I never said I trust everyone in the world.
Neither does the world trust everyone. Universal distrust of all strangers.

But since you say this is a "learned" behavior, I take it that you don't think this kind of universal distrust is justified? I mean...we just could all unlearn it, right? Modify our behavior?
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Old 05-22-2022, 07:48 PM   #8410
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But since you say this is a "learned" behavior, I take it that you don't think this kind of universal distrust is justified? I mean...we just could all unlearn it, right? Modify our behavior?
Can anything ever be "unlearned?" I doubt it but psychology is not my field.
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Old 05-22-2022, 07:52 PM   #8411
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Neither does the world trust everyone. Universal distrust of all strangers.
I wonder if competent psychologists have ever conducted a study on that question.
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Old 05-22-2022, 10:09 PM   #8412
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It's not a matter of difficulty. My question was why should I care what the Catholic Church, or any church, says? I stand by my assertion that "Religion depends on unquestioning belief for its very existence." Any statement of the Catholic Church on this issue is hardly from an unbiased view.
Any statement from "my assertion" on this issue is hardly from an unbiased view.
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Old 05-22-2022, 11:13 PM   #8413
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One could also say that about single celled organisms living in the sea. What would be the purpose/function of them becoming fish and eventually crawling out upon the land? There is no "purpose" or goal of evolution.
Some might make more of Dawkins' answer than you, or he..."If you ask what is this adaptation good for, why does the animal do this - have a red crest, or whatever it is - the answer is always, for the good of the genes that made it". Sure sounds like Aristotle's final cause, right there in "the selfish gene" [italics mine]... https://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/427...20is%20sailing.

Dawkins "for the good of the genes that made it".
Aristotle " for the sake of which a thing is changing".

The dear teacher, Mr. Carr gets it wrong in his separation of worldviews, just as I misquoted Tallis. Aristotelians assign "purpose" only to conscious beings, but the "telos" (something that points beyond itself to an end) of natural selection if Dawkins is correct, well, even he states it.

But I wasn't even asking the question per se, but citing the "unquestioning belief" of the critics of Nagel, Tallis, Chalmers, Stephen J. Gould, et.al., as regards the original post.
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Old 05-23-2022, 08:24 AM   #8414
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Can anything ever be "unlearned?" I doubt it but psychology is not my field.
Of course, it can. Old habits can be broken. It happens everyday. But the question is: Do we want to break all "old habits"? When you raised your kids, did you teach them to trust strangers? Did your parents teach you to trust strangers?
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Old 05-23-2022, 03:51 PM   #8415
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Old habits can be broken.
Not very easily.
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