Religious

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

God, the "perfect" deity has assigned some questionable representatives to present his case.

No...not "questionable representatives" to "present his choice" but the perfect "representatives" to fulfill his perfect purpose! Even Pharaoh was chosen of God to fulfill His purpose!

This thread is a "perfect" example of his imperfect choice of an incompetent "agent" hawking his wares. Better even for God to remain silent than to be thought such a fool.

Don't you know that the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men? Perhaps you should emulate the humility of Job since you are so quick to speak of things of which you have no understanding (Job 40:4).

[thaskalos]

God is "omnipotent", but he won't lift a finger to prevent any catastrophe or cure any devastating illness. He is "ever-loving", and yet, he has earmarked only a small minority of us as recipients of the "Heavenly Life"...aiming to torture the rest of us in a fiery hell for all eternity. And he is "infallible"...but usually selects only fools to represent him.

And then he wonders why he isn't more popular...

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Early local churches (congregations) usually met in believers' homes. Homes are still buildings -- just not the large structures we're accustomed to seeing today. (Although I do know of one very large home not too far from me in which a body believers meet.)

There is a huge difference between meeting in someone's home as early Christians did and meeting at a Church such as in Constantine's time. In a home, no one claims to be divinely ordained and have the power to forgive your sins. In a Church they do. In a home no one tells you what "penance to do for your sins, in a Church they do. In a home no one tells you that you cannot have a direct relationship with your God. In a Church they do. They are the middlemen between you and God.

At the same time, some of these so called divinely anointed clergy who claim the power to absolve your sins have been proven to be pedophiles, adulterers and even murderers.

If I go to seminary school and become a priest, I am given this power to forgive sins in confessions. Really? I am still the same old person I was. Believe me if you have a divine experience that gives you that power, it would be paranormal, not boring as 99% of the clergy can put you to sleep.

To summarize, at home, Christians have nothing between them and God but themselves. In Church, Christians have this huge block called organized religion between themselves and God. And organized religion,like the Bible is tainted with political motives. If you go to Church or read the Bible, you need some common sense as to what is God and what is man.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I'm afraid you missed the entire point to my pointing to the two kings.

I understood your point completely but disagreed with it, so you thought I must of missed it.

Originally Posted by boxcar

But regardless of what Constantine's intentions were; God's purpose prevailed.

Again I disagree.

I don’t think Constantine’s establishment of Christianity and the cessation of persecuting Christians was due to divine intervention as much as the growing movement of Christianity itself at the time. Give credit where credit is due. By establishing Christianity as a legalized religion and converting himself, the movement grew more rapidly and he could enjoy the political support of the rapidly growing Christian population.

But here’s the catch. Most of the high ranking clergy in the Churches such as the Bishops owed their positions to Constantine. Constantine gave them the religious and judicial powers, not God. The Bishops had to serve Constantine’s will or face the consequences. This was the real (and hidden) control Constantine had. Through the Church, Constantine controlled the Christians. Some Christians saw though his disguise and fled his empire for this reason. Those who rejected his Church were heretics. Whenever he conquered new territory and people, one of his demands was conversion to Christianity. The persecuted Christians, became the persecutors.

So you could say everything is God’s will and you would probably be right. But in Constantine’s case, I believe he took advantage of a growing grass roots movement to further his political position and power.

The credit should go to the Christians themselves as their numbers and power grew. Not to Constantine. They forced his hand,not God. Constantine continued to practice Paganism and murder after his so called conversion to Christianity.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

There is a huge difference between meeting in someone's home as early Christians did and meeting at a Church such as in Constantine's time. In a home, no one claims to be divinely ordained and have the power to forgive your sins. In a Church they do. In a home no one tells you what "penance to do for your sins, in a Church they do. In a home no one tells you that you cannot have a direct relationship with your God. In a Church they do. They are the middlemen between you and God.

At the same time, some of these so called divinely anointed clergy who claim the power to absolve your sins have been proven to be pedophiles, adulterers and even murderers.

If I go to seminary school and become a priest, I am given this power to forgive sins in confessions. Really? I am still the same old person I was. Believe me if you have a divine experience that gives you that power, it would be paranormal, not boring as 99% of the clergy can put you to sleep.

To summarize, at home, Christians have nothing between them and God but themselves. In Church, Christians have this huge block called organized religion between themselves and God. And organized religion,like the Bible is tainted with political motives. If you go to Church or read the Bible, you need some common sense as to what is God and what is man.

You should be venting your incredulity at ShowMe re the priesthood. He's our resident Catholic. I am not.

However, I will rebut your last paragraph. Regardless where the church (body of believers meet for worship), everything is to be conducted in an orderly fashion, according to scripture. In other words, even in the homes in the first century, the services were structured or "organized". It wasn't a free-for-all, circus atmosphere.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And then he wonders why he isn't more popular...

Look around... Billions of believers.

Just imagine if he were a likeable fellow.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Look around... Billions of believers.

Just imagine if he were a likeable fellow.

Jesus Christ was the most likeable fellow who ever lived, and look what that got him. He healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, opened the ears of the deaf, caused the lame to walk, cast out demons, raised the dead, forgave sins, preached the gospel (good news) etc., etc. and he still wasn't the most popular fellow around. I guess there just ain't no pleasin' many people...

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Jesus Christ was the most likeable fellow who ever lived, and look what that got him. He healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, opened the ears of the deaf, caused the lame to walk, cast out demons, raised the dead, forgave sins, preached the gospel (good news) etc., etc. and he still wasn't the most popular fellow around. I guess there just ain't no pleasin' many people...

Jesus was a revolutionary, who vowed to "turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law..." -- Matthew 10:35

When will you start telling the truth?

[Tom]

If I go to seminary school and become a priest, I am given this power to forgive sins in confessions. Really? I am still the same old person I was.

Did Peter not cure the ill after the ascension? Was he not the rock upon which the CHurch was built? Was he not the first Pope?

The connections are there.

I have no idea where Earnest Angley traces back to. (Ba-by!)

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Jesus was a revolutionary, who vowed to "turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law..." -- Matthew 10:35

When will you start telling the truth?

You mean...Jesus didn't do any of the things I listed?

So, revolutionary men are all evil in your world? Do you think Jesus was an evil human being? Jesus was simply telling it like it is in Mat 10:35. Would you rather he lie by commission or omission instead? Would that have put him on your good list?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Tom

Did Peter not cure the ill after the ascension? Was he not the rock upon which the CHurch was built? Was he not the first Pope?

The connections are there.

I have no idea where Earnest Angley traces back to. (Ba-by!)

All the apostles performed miracles and signs and wonders in order to affirm their message. So, Peter was not unique.

And, no, Peter was not a pope. Popes are religious figments of people's imaginations.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You mean...Jesus didn't do any of the things I listed?

So, revolutionary men are all evil in your world? Do you think Jesus was an evil human being? Jesus was simply telling it like it is in Mat 10:35. Would you rather he lie by commission or omission instead? Would that have put him on your good list?

Evil is YOUR word...not mine. All I am saying is that Jesus was hardly the "sweetheart" that you are making him out to be. He made it clear that he was only here for the benefit of a very select group of people...and any interactions with "outsiders" he considered as..."giving what is holy to the dogs...or, casting pearls before swine."

The "most likable fellow who ever lived" could hardly be expected to express himself in such a manner.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Evil is YOUR word...not mine. All I am saying is that Jesus was hardly the "sweetheart" that you are making him out to be. He made it clear that he was only here for the benefit of a very select group of people...and any interactions with "outsiders" he considered as..."giving what is holy to the dogs...or, casting pearls before swine."

The "most likable fellow who ever lived" could hardly be expected to express himself in such a manner.

He wasn't a "sweetheart" because he told it like it was. And you really hate him for that, don't you? Since he was the very God of God, he told the Jews that they would have to place him first above all else, otherwise they would not be worthy of him. Even "hate" their own lives and take up their cross and follow him. And the key word here is follow. But the world doesn't want to follow Jesus. Everyone wants to follow after their own lusts! Everyone wants to march to their own drum beat. And this is why he isn't the world's "sweetheart" either. You see...if Jesus had preached a "feel good" gospel or "your-okay-I'm-okay" gospel, the world would have loved him. But because he was so honest...well, the world can't handle that kind of brute honesty.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

He wasn't a "sweetheart" because he told it like it was. And you really hate him for that, don't you? Since he was the very God of God, he told the Jews that they would have to place him first above all else, otherwise they would not be worthy of him. Even "hate" their own lives and take up their cross and follow him. And the key word here is follow. But the world doesn't want to follow Jesus. Everyone wants to follow after their own lusts! Everyone wants to march to their own drum beat. And this is why he isn't the world's "sweetheart" either. You see...if Jesus had preached a "feel good" gospel or "your-okay-I'm-okay" gospel, the world would have loved him. But because he was so honest...well, the world can't handle that kind of brute honesty.

I am not fond of Jesus because he was not receptive of the idea of preaching to the entire world. He repeatedly stated that his sole purpose here was to "save the lost sheep of Israel". "What has this to do with me?"...he would cry out, whenever he was asked to provide a service for an "outsider".

So...when someone brings the gospels to me...since I am a Greek and not an Israeli, I too ask..."What has this to do with me?"

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

In other words, even in the homes in the first century, the services were structured or "organized". It wasn't a free-for-all, circus atmosphere.

I never implied it was a free for all just because early Christian congregations met in homes. On the contrary. What I implied was that there was probably more sincerity and closeness with God in homes than in Churches because it is the Churches that have been the circus.

Churches don't necessarily do the work of God. They did the work of the state as in Constantine's time. Later the low life Pope Gregory (6th century) turned Mary Madelene into a whore when in fact she never was, and was probably closer to Jesus than Peter.