Free will is an illusion

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So then...God is not the ultimate answer for personal fulfillment or personal happiness? We can find these things in the treasures of the world, rather than in the treasures of heaven?

Do you remember how Jesus answered an expert in the Law when he asked Jesus, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Do you recall Jesus' answer?

Apparently not for everyone, but certainly for me.

As for the other stuff, I will leave you to debate that stuff with people who are far more biblically knowledgeable than I am.

[Light]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

You are immersed in Individualism and Subjectivism. Those are philosophical positions. You still "take a philosophical approach to God".

When you fell in love with someone, did "philosophy" enter the equation? Did it even exist?

My relation to God/Jesus is on an even higher plane than that, so sorry, no philosophy is involved.

I realize the idea that I may have a REAL relationship to the Divine is foreign to you.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Apparently not for everyone...

Then they would never feel at home in heaven, would they? Would they not loathe spending an eternity in the presence of someone they never treasured here on earth?

Matt 6:19-21
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
NIV

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by Light

When you fell in love with someone, did "philosophy" enter the equation? Did it even exist?

My relation to God/Jesus is on an even higher plane than that, so sorry, no philosophy is involved.

I realize the idea that I may have a REAL relationship to the Divine is foreign to you.

Yeah...right.

What makes you think your "REAL" relationship to the Divine is any better than somebody else's???

You've got to be shitting me.

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

You do not have to love God to be happy.
You just have to make a life that makes you happy.

It is the bible thumpers of the world who think it is a His-way-or-the-highway sort of deal. Typically, the bible thumpers also feel that if they screw up, God will cause the roof to cave in.

I can tell you firsthand, that's just not how it works.
(I've screwed up plenty.)

Ultimately, life is whatever we CHOOSE to make of it.
Period.

My outlook is far different than yours because, when I was drawn to Christ 25 years ago, I was gifted with amazing mentorship, which resulted in amazing understanding.

In turn, this resulted in amazing changes in my life.

To be clear, it is not something that I attained to; not something I earned. I simply TRUSTED. A little at first, and, when I saw positive results, I trusted a little more, which led to even more change.

Surprisingly, the initial changes were actually external and quite negative, but eventually life became more than I could have ever imagined. Both inside and out.

As I often say, "There is no jet in my driveway," but life is very, very good.

So, when did I give up free will?
Never.
In so many ways, I wish I could, because clearly my life goes far better when God runs things. But being human, I crave control, and when I take control, things often go south.

I'm not a bible-thumpy guy, but this passage - one of like 3 I know LOL - defines the biggest challenge in my life:

Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

I doubt this really addressed YOUR question, as I doubt that you really expected an answer. But I felt compelled to write it.

BTW, there is a quote in the bible somewhere - never do remember those locations - LOL - that tells us God wants to give us the desires of our heart.
....


Dave

Glad you did!

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Light

Clearly you are jealous of anyone who does have a real experience of God by slandering them.

Ummm...sir...that would be LIBEL...not slander...

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Light

When you fell in love with someone, did "philosophy" enter the equation? Did it even exist?

My relation to God/Jesus is on an even higher plane than that, so sorry, no philosophy is involved.

I realize the idea that I may have a REAL relationship to the Divine is foreign to you.

You had no discriminating factors? I established certain grounds for what type of person I would love, who they were in their entirety. Of course. Then the love flowed freely.

You have separated Jesus from the divine nature of God, either philosophically or simple will. You may love him to the nth degree, but your capacity for loving him is reductive compared to the Christian who loves him for his divinity.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Elkchester Road

Yeah...right.

What makes you think your "REAL" relationship to the Divine is any better than somebody else's???

You've got to be shitting me.

Where do I say my relationship with the Divine is better than anyone's?

[Light]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Ummm...sir...that would be LIBEL...not slander...

TY

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

To me, "Free Will" is a philosophical debate...not a religious one. Does man really choose what he really wants...or are his choices restricted by the preconditioning that he is exposed to in life?

Very much so, but also religious.

Daniel Dennett would disagree with Harris, Greg Caruso would agree with Harris.

All materialists.

[Light]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

You had no discriminating factors? I established certain grounds for what type of person I would love, who they were in their entirety. Of course. Then the love flowed freely.

That is conditional love. Divine love is unconditional

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

You have separated Jesus from the divine nature of God, either philosophically or simple will. You may love him to the nth degree, but your capacity for loving him is reductive compared to the Christian who loves him for his divinity.

You somehow think you have the ability to define my relationship with Jesus as
"reductive". My relationship with Jesus is known only between us.

Obviously you are grasping at straws.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

You had no discriminating factors? I established certain grounds for what type of person I would love, who they were in their entirety. Of course. Then the love flowed freely.

You have separated Jesus from the divine nature of God, either philosophically or simple will. You may love him to the nth degree, but your capacity for loving him is reductive compared to the Christian who loves him for his divinity.

It's debatable whether or not the Christian is in "love" with Jesus's divinity. To me...it looks more like a "business arrangement". The Christian professes his "love" for Jesus, with the hope that Jesus will eventually reciprocate by rewarding him with the "Heavenly Life".

Hardly the stuff that true "love" is made of...IMO.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Light

That is conditional love. Divine love is unconditional



You somehow think you have the ability to define my relationship with Jesus as
"reductive". My relationship with Jesus is known only between us.

Obviously you are grasping at straws.

You set up the analogy of human to human love, vs. human to divine love, not me. Of course your human love was originally conditional. Am I falling in love with Lizzy Borden, etc.? It grows to become unconditional.

Either Jesus is God, isn't God, didn't exist, or anything in between. We may all decide based upon our own criteria. But the truth about him exists external to our subjective decision being right or wrong...Realism.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It's debatable whether or not the Christian is in "love" with Jesus's divinity. To me...it looks more like a "business arrangement". The Christian professes his "love" for Jesus, with the hope that Jesus will eventually reciprocate by rewarding him with the "Heavenly Life".

Hardly the stuff that true "love" is made of...IMO.

"The Heavenly Life" is not a celestial harem, etc., for the individuals I discuss with or consider valuable sources. It's a "participation in the Divine nature", i.e., loving as God loves unconditionally, often labeled "agape" love. Sharing in the life and love of the Persons in the Trinity through gift, grace, while not becoming God by in nature.

The idea that from all eternity, in one act of Being conceiving creation, God so desired our sharing in his life to the degree that Christ subjected himself to man's misuse of his free will, in the Crucifixion par excellence, in order to restore man to his original vocation, can be the beginning movement of this "love for Jesus" for many of us.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

"The Heavenly Life" is not a celestial harem, etc., for the individuals I discuss with or consider valuable sources. It's a "participation in the Divine nature", i.e., loving as God loves unconditionally, often labeled "agape" love. Sharing in the life and love of the Persons in the Trinity through gift, grace, while not becoming God by in nature.

The idea that from all eternity, in one act of Being conceiving creation, God so desired our sharing in his life to the degree that Christ subjected himself to man's misuse of his free will, in the Crucifixion par excellence, in order to restore man to his original vocation, can be the beginning movement of this "love for Jesus" for many of us.

I remain unconvinced. IMO...if the "celestial harem" form of the Heavenly Life didn't exist in the Christian mind...then Christianity wouldn't be a tenth as "popular" as it now is.