Horse of the Year 2016?

[Tom]

Gotta be Chrome.
Most influence all year, not just 2 races.

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by Tom

Gotta be Chrome.
Most influence all year, not just 2 races.

These are literally the posts that drive me bananas. When you ask people about Crome they give you this vague response of "He had a better campaign" "he raced more" he danced more dances" etc.

Tell me what he did that Arrogate didn't.

Because Arrogate beat Crome head to head. Ran the best two mile and a quarter dirt races on the year. Dominated the best three year old field of the year. And beat the best older horse field of the year. That's what he did.

The only thing I can see Crome did that Arrogate did not was win the Dubai World Cup.

So basically if you vote for Crome you're saying the Dubai World Cup is the be all and end all of racing. That essentially beating Turf horses on the dirt half of which were off a layoff negates the result of the Breeders Cup Classic.

That's what a Crome votes says.

[cj]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

These are literally the posts that drive me bananas. When you ask people about Crome they give you this vague response of "He had a better campaign" "he raced more" he danced more dances" etc.

Tell me what he did that Arrogate didn't.

Because Arrogate beat Crome head to head. Ran the best two mile and a quarter dirt races on the year. Dominated the best three year old field of the year. And beat the best older horse field of the year. That's what he did.

The only thing I can see Crome did that Arrogate did not was win the Dubai World Cup.

So basically if you vote for Crome you're saying the Dubai World Cup is the be all and end all of racing. That essentially beating Turf horses on the dirt half of which were off a layoff negates the result of the Breeders Cup Classic.

That's what a Crome votes says.

Arrogate basically ran in two races that matter for Eclipse Awards. I don't think any horse has ever gotten votes for maiden and allowance wins. That is why he won't win. I'm not sure why that drives you crazy.

Chrome won two nice races in Dubai, including the big one. He won the G1 Awesome Again, the G1 Pacific Classic, the G2 San Diego and the G2 San Pasqual. He also has to get some credit for being 2nd in the G1 BC Classic by a half length.

Basically, Arrogate has two G1s, obviously one over Chrome in the BC Classic. The first, however, was age restricted.

Chrome has two G1s, two G2s, the Dubai World Cup and a narrow loss to Arrogate in the BC. I don't see how in the world that equates to a vote for Chrome meaning the Dubai World Cup is the be all and end all. He has the better resume in my opinion, not all that close either.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

These are literally the posts that drive me bananas. When you ask people about Crome they give you this vague response of "He had a better campaign" "he raced more" he danced more dances" etc.

Tell me what he did that Arrogate didn't.

Because Arrogate beat Crome head to head. Ran the best two mile and a quarter dirt races on the year. Dominated the best three year old field of the year. And beat the best older horse field of the year. That's what he did.

The only thing I can see Crome did that Arrogate did not was win the Dubai World Cup.

So basically if you vote for Crome you're saying the Dubai World Cup is the be all and end all of racing. That essentially beating Turf horses on the dirt half of which were off a layoff negates the result of the Breeders Cup Classic.

That's what a Crome votes says.

A Chrome vote says "thanks for sticking around and showing everyone what a great horse you truly are, from here to Dubai". Chrome gave the fans excitement and motivation to see this great horse run. An illustrious career, winning over $14 Mil who is now going to retire after the Pegasus. Horse racing needed Chrome, and he delivered after the TC of American Pharaoh and his brief career....Let Arrogate show everyone how great he truly is by continuing his brilliance next year....2 great races is just not enough for HOY, IMO.....

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by cj

Arrogate basically ran in two races that matter for Eclipse Awards. I don't think any horse has ever gotten votes for maiden and allowance wins. That is why he won't win. I'm not sure why that drives you crazy.

Chrome won two nice races in Dubai, including the big one. He won the G1 Awesome Again, the G1 Pacific Classic, the G2 San Diego and the G2 San Pasqual. He also has to get some credit for being 2nd in the G1 BC Classic by a half length.

Basically, Arrogate has two G1s, obviously one over Chrome in the BC Classic. The first, however, was age restricted.

Chrome has two G1s, two G2s, the Dubai World Cup and a narrow loss to Arrogate in the BC. I don't see how in the world that equates to a vote for Chrome meaning the Dubai World Cup is the be all and end all. He has the better resume in my opinion, not all that close either.

CJ you and Randall's post under you hit my other pet peeve on Crome...

Basically there is no older horse division. So framing his wins as G!'s and G2's mean little to me. It's who he beat.

And Randall of course hits on the money. The money means nothing. A million dollar race isn't organically a tougher race than a $500K race. The Dubai World Cup is not 10X harder than the Whitney or Pacific Classic.

Even when you look at the Pacific Classic which was probably Crome's best race he beat Dortmund and Beholder. Dortmund did nothing all year so that's not really impressive. Beholder a tougher one. She could be the clear third best horse of 2016. On the other hand Stellar Wind beat her twice and she ran fourth in the F&M Classic. So even Beholder is a tough bar.

CJ. Here's the bottomline. Arrogate beat him on the square. I'm not 100% opposed to giving the award to Crome inspite of that but he'd have to do something special to overcome that. That "something special" isn't the San Diego and the Sam Pasquel. And to Randall's point its not $14 million in earnings.

Show me what he did to overcome the other horse beating him.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

CJ you and Randall's post under you hit my other pet peeve on Crome...

Basically there is no older horse division. So framing his wins as G!'s and G2's mean little to me. It's who he beat.

And Randall of course hits on the money. The money means nothing. A million dollar race isn't organically a tougher race than a $500K race. The Dubai World Cup is not 10X harder than the Whitney or Pacific Classic.

Even when you look at the Pacific Classic which was probably Crome's best race he beat Dortmund and Beholder. Dortmund did nothing all year so that's not really impressive. Beholder a tougher one. She could be the clear third best horse of 2016. On the other hand Stellar Wind beat her twice and she ran fourth in the F&M Classic. So even Beholder is a tough bar.

CJ. Here's the bottomline. Arrogate beat him on the square. I'm not 100% opposed to giving the award to Crome inspite of that but he'd have to do something special to overcome that. That "something special" isn't the San Diego and the Sam Pasquel. And to Randall's point its not $14 million in earnings.

Show me what he did to overcome the other horse beating him.

I stand by my post SP, just as you stand by yours...

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

I stand by my post SP, just as you stand by yours...

Oh I know I'm not changing any minds and I know Crome will win but its going to be another example of this sport being a trainwreck.

The concept of the Breeders Cup is as a championship. The only way voters should deviate from the results is in some type of extenuating circumstances or if a horse has accomplished something so massive its transcends the results (not wins in two G2 stakes.). Like in 2014 if you thought the break cost Shared Belief the race I'm fine with a vote for him.

Basically Eclipse voters have decided they're going to do what they want and its not good for the sport.

I'll sum it up this way. In 2008 the Eclipse voters would have voted the New England Patriots Championship Football Team. Sure the Giants beat them in the Super Bowl but it was a small margin and the Patriots won 16 games to the Giants 10 and so the Patriots had a better body of work and really that's what counts most.

Literally no other sport works like this.

[Tom]

That's what a Crome votes says.

To you, maybe.
As to your insane comments about the older horse having no division, you ignore the fact the the 3yo crop was not so hot, either. A freaking MAIDEN wont he Wood.

Operative part of the award is of the year.
Chrome was winning the richest race in the world while Arrogate was taking his nappy time in the maiden ranks.

NEXT year will the time for Arrogate.

The concept of the Breeders Cup is as a championship. The only way voters should deviate from the results is in some type of extenuating circumstances

The Eclipse awards have been around a lot longer than the BC has. If the BC was half as important as you think it is, then there should be no voting - just make the award part of the winner's prize.

Remember.....of the year, not Halloween in California.

[cj]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

CJ you and Randall's post under you hit my other pet peeve on Crome...

Basically there is no older horse division. So framing his wins as G!'s and G2's mean little to me. It's who he beat.

And Randall of course hits on the money. The money means nothing. A million dollar race isn't organically a tougher race than a $500K race. The Dubai World Cup is not 10X harder than the Whitney or Pacific Classic.

Even when you look at the Pacific Classic which was probably Crome's best race he beat Dortmund and Beholder. Dortmund did nothing all year so that's not really impressive. Beholder a tougher one. She could be the clear third best horse of 2016. On the other hand Stellar Wind beat her twice and she ran fourth in the F&M Classic. So even Beholder is a tough bar.

CJ. Here's the bottomline. Arrogate beat him on the square. I'm not 100% opposed to giving the award to Crome inspite of that but he'd have to do something special to overcome that. That "something special" isn't the San Diego and the Sam Pasquel. And to Randall's point its not $14 million in earnings.

Show me what he did to overcome the other horse beating him.

I just think it is horse of the year, not horse of the BC Classic. We already know which horse that is. No matter what the fields looked like after the fact, 2 G1s, 2 G2s, and two foreign races that were probably G1 and G2 equivalents easily overcomes the 1/2 length loss when the only other resume builder Arrogate has is the 3yo only Travers.

No doubt I think Arrogate is the better horse. I picked him to beat CC in the Classic and again in the Pegasus. But he just didn't do enough for me when compared to a horse like California Chrome. You gotta dance more than twice in my opinion.

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by Tom

To you, maybe.
As to your insane comments about the older horse having no division, you ignore the fact the the 3yo crop was not so hot, either. A freaking MAIDEN wont he Wood.

Operative part of the award is of the year.
Chrome was winning the richest race in the world while Arrogate was taking his nappy time in the maiden ranks.

NEXT year will the time for Arrogate.



The Eclipse awards have been around a lot longer than the BC has. If the BC was half as important as you think it is, then there should be no voting - just make the award part of the winner's prize.

Remember.....of the year, not Halloween in California.

Oh Tom I love you. I want to marry you. I've been baiting everyone to say it and you came on here and delivered.

Crome won "the richest race in the world." You said it. That is a very true statement.

That's what separates them on resume. That's my biggest beef. The Dubai World Cup has a $10 million dollar purse. So voters give it a LOT more cred than what the field is worth. To quote And Serling on this VERY Forum "all the Pegasus is is the Don Handicap with a $12 million purse." But we all know moving froward the Pegasus will carry a LOT more weight for year end honors than the Donn.

The reality is the DWC field isn't as tough a field most years as the Whitney, the PC or the Met Mile. Hell the Grade Two older race on Oaks Day at Churchill typically has a stronger dirt field. But purse size makes voters feel it should count more. So it counts more. But doesn't mean its a bigger accomplishment.

You're getting purse hustled Tom.

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by cj

I just think it is horse of the year, not horse of the BC Classic. We already know which horse that is. No matter what the fields looked like after the fact, 2 G1s, 2 G2s, and two foreign races that were probably G1 and G2 equivalents easily overcomes the 1/2 length loss when the only other resume builder Arrogate has is the 3yo only Travers.

No doubt I think Arrogate is the better horse. I picked him to beat CC in the Classic and again in the Pegasus. But he just didn't do enough for me when compared to a horse like California Chrome. You gotta dance more than twice in my opinion.

CJ, I think that's a fair statement but here's the issue going forward. Horses are racing less. They simply are. So while giving a longer campaign is admirable I think its going to REALLY complicate things moving forward.

My bigger beef is the Eclipse voters simply suck. They robbed Zenyatta to give it to Rachel. Then robbed Blame to give it to Zenyatta to make up for robbing her. Then they gave it to Crome off a fourth place Classic finish behind Bayern. Now they'll give it to Crome over Arrogate even though Arrogate beat him they only time they raced.

John Gaines started the Breeders Cup to have a championship. To decide year end honors across all divisions. To add clarity in the east/west rivalry which is now east/west/Euro.

Since 2008 only ONE Breeders Cup Classic has been named HOF and that was AP and he won a Triple Crown which made it a formality after June.

If the trend of the voters systemically throwing out the Breeders Cup Classic results doesn't bother you it should because its awful for racing. Whether you like Crome or Like Arrogate this year we've officially reached a tipping point where the Breeders Cup Classic is kind of irrelevant for year end honors. It's sad.

Eclipse voting has become like the Oscars or Emmys where the voters decided who's worthy or who's earned it or who's time to win has come versus who was best. It stinks

[cj]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

CJ, I think that's a fair statement but here's the issue going forward. Horses are racing less. They simply are. So while giving a longer campaign is admirable I think its going to REALLY complicate things moving forward.

My bigger beef is the Eclipse voters simply suck. They robbed Zenyatta to give it to Rachel. Then robbed Blame to give it to Zenyatta to make up for robbing her. Then they gave it to Crome off a fourth place Classic finish behind Bayern. Now they'll give it to Crome over Arrogate even though Arrogate beat him they only time they raced.

John Gaines started the Breeders Cup to have a championship. To decide year end honors across all divisions. To add clarity in the east/west rivalry which is now east/west/Euro.

Since 2008 only ONE Breeders Cup Classic has been named HOF and that was AP and he won a Triple Crown which made it a formality after June.

If the trend of the voters systemically throwing out the Breeders Cup Classic results doesn't bother you it should because its awful for racing. Whether you like Crome or Like Arrogate this year we've officially reached a tipping point where the Breeders Cup Classic is kind of irrelevant for year end honors. It's sad.

Eclipse voting has become like the Oscars or Emmys where the voters decided who's worthy or who's earned it or who's time to win has come versus who was best. It stinks

I'm actually on the opposite side of the fence. I don't want any one race carrying too much weight. That will only encourage horses to race even less than now. I don't think any of the "snubbed" BC Classic winners were all that deserving to be honest other than Blame. Wise Dan deserved it over Mucho Macho Man and Fort Larned. I don't think anybody was clamoring for a Drosselmeyer title. All of which shows one race count too much for a year encompassing honor.

Of those you mention, Zenyatta's best claim for the title was her 4yo season IMO. The year they actually gave it to her was the least deserving. Should have been Duck of the Year award. Bayern...meh. If he won, fine, but no real problem with Chrome getting it over him. It was a close call. The way Bayern won is what probably cost him the title whether you agree with the non-DQ or not...it was a deciding factor with voters.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by cj

...I think Arrogate is the better horse...

He may well be, but we won't know until they either compete at equal weights, which they never will, or Arrogate wins easily. There is a two pound weight advantage for four-year-olds over five-year-olds and up in January by the Jockey Club Scale of Weights. It is quite possible that the four pound differential in the Classic was worth more than a half length.

When Blame and Zenyatta finished on even terms in their Classic the Racing Post weighted the colt three pounds higher because of the mare's three pound weight advantage.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Steve R

He may well be, but we won't know until they either compete at equal weights, which they never will, or Arrogate wins easily. There is a two pound weight advantage for four-year-olds over five-year-olds and up in January by the Jockey Club Scale of Weights. It is quite possible that the four pound differential in the Classic was worth more than a half length.

When Blame and Zenyatta finished on even terms in their Classic the Racing Post weighted the colt three pounds higher because of the mare's three pound weight advantage.

We don't race horses at level weights for a reason though. A 5yo Chrome should be bigger, stronger and faster than a 3yo Arrogate. I agree it is possible the 4 pounds could have changed the result, but I don't think the 4 pounds was unfair. Do you?

I thought I read that the Pegasus would be at level weights but we'll see. Hard to find any real information on the race so far.

[cj]

Horse of the Year / BC Classic winners, keeping in mind the Classic has been around since 1984.

1984 - 1993 5 of 10 won HOY
1994 - 2003 2 of 10 won HOY
2004 - 2013 4 of 10 won HOY
2014 - 2016 1 of 2 won HOY, probably 1 of 3

So there isn't really any trend that I see. The race is weighted more heavily than others but not too heavily. Looks just about to right to my eyes.