"A chip on his shoulder" - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

WALLENDA · 10-02-2016, 11:00 AM

During the NBC broadcast yesterday Victor Espinoza said Chrome was the best horse he's ridden, implying better than American Pharoah.

Jerry Bailey replied that Victor might have a chip on his shoulder because he didn't get breeding seasons with American Pharoah.

What was he talking about?

burnsy · 10-02-2016, 11:16 AM

I don't know, but I'll say one thing. The way Chrome is this year, there's not many that can beat him, period........including American Pharoah.

His races have been in the "historic" realm this year. The only close one was the one off of the "Dubai trip" which is to be expected. Burnsy is one of the hardest critics of the horses because I'm always shopping for prices. Someone said they are animals not machines in another thread about him.........this horse is damn near a machine this year. I'll repeat what I said before, he would run a respectable 10 furlongs vs. anyone throughout history right now. That race yesterday was him playing with the competition without rubbing it in. Which he could of done if the rider pleased to. That's why Victor is talking this way.
He's sitting on a machine, a freaking Coup de Ville at that.

v j stauffer · 10-02-2016, 11:40 AM

Sometimes when a great horse is retired to stud. As a sort of "bonus" or "tip" the owners will gift a breeding season to the trainer and or jockey.

Sounds like Bailey may have been suggesting the Zayat's chose against this option regarding Victor.

Spalding No! · 10-02-2016, 12:42 PM

I wonder how common it is for jockey's to receive annual breeding rights. Certainly trainers get breeding rights all the time and in fact Billy Turner filed a breach-of-contract suit against the connections of Seattle Slew, attempting to halt the start of that horse's stallion career because he was not given an annual breeding right. He also thought he deserved 10% of Slew's syndication deal ($12 million).

This stuff is rarely disclosed to the public, but I doubt it's common for jockeys to get such perks. Its not like these things can be passed around like candy, there are a finite number. Did Zayat even control the distribution of breeding rights anyway after he made the stud deal with Coolmore (well before the Triple Crown ended)?

Maybe this is all in Bailey's head. Perhaps he's sour himself because the only breeding right he ever got was to Cigar. More likely, Espinoza jonesing from all the outside attention he got last year, is simply trying to keep it alive with some "controversial" comments (and can waving).

dilanesp · 10-02-2016, 01:02 PM

Chrome has had a far more impressive career than American Pharoah.

The TC obscures that somewhat, but these races Chrome is winning feature open competition and Chrome excelled over a three year period.

Espinoza should say he's better. Chrome is going to make all time lists of great horses. Pharoah will not.

ronsmac · 10-02-2016, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Chrome has had a far more impressive career than American Pharoah.

The TC obscures that somewhat, but these races Chrome is winning feature open competition and Chrome excelled over a three year period.

Espinoza should say he's better. Chrome is going to make all time lists of great horses. Pharoah will not.

I think both will and have.

whodoyoulike · 10-02-2016, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnsy

I don't know, but I'll say one thing. The way Chrome is this year, there's not many that can beat him, period........including American Pharoah. ..

It's a shame we will never find out about AP and CC. So close to seeing two great ones missing each other by one year.

Did Espinoza use the whip during any part in yesterday's race?

And, I don't think he moved a muscle during the entire race.

whodoyoulike · 10-02-2016, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Chrome has had a far more impressive career than American Pharoah.

The TC obscures that somewhat, but these races Chrome is winning feature open competition and Chrome excelled over a three year period.

Espinoza should say he's better. Chrome is going to make all time lists of great horses. Pharoah will not.

AP's BCC leaves people wondering the what if part.

dilanesp · 10-02-2016, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronsmac

I think both will and have.

Pharoah's career is akin to Omaha's.Is Omaha an all time great?

ronsmac · 10-02-2016, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Pharoah's career is akin to Omaha's.Is Omaha an all time great?

Before my time.

ronsmac · 10-02-2016, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Pharoah's career is akin to Omaha's.Is Omaha an all time great?

It's not just American Pharoah's dominant record. It's the manner in which he won the majority of his races. Very few were even competitive. Just my not so humble opinion.

foregoforever · 10-02-2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Pharoah's career is akin to Omaha's.Is Omaha an all time great?

What?

Omaha had an undistinguished 2yo year. AP was 2yo of the year.

Omaha was a surprise winner of the TC. AP was favorite in all three races.

Omaha 3yo season ended with lameness in August. AP won the BC Classic.

Omaha raced as a 4yo on turf in England with a couple of wins, several seconds. AP didn't race as a 4yo.

Omaha 22 starts, 9-7-2
AP 11 starts, 9-0-1

Where do you see the "akin" in these careers? I'd say that AP's career was more akin to Secretariat's than Omaha's.

Steve R · 10-02-2016, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foregoforever

What?

Omaha had an undistinguished 2yo year. AP was 2yo of the year.

Omaha was a surprise winner of the TC. AP was favorite in all three races.

Omaha 3yo season ended with lameness in August. AP won the BC Classic.

Omaha raced as a 4yo on turf in England with a couple of wins, several seconds. AP didn't race as a 4yo.

Omaha 22 starts, 9-7-2
AP 11 starts, 9-0-1

Where do you see the "akin" in these careers? I'd say that AP's career was more akin to Secretariat's than Omaha's.

Among 20th century Thoroughbreds Omaha was ranked 61st, between Native Diver at 60th and Holy Bull at 64th. I wouldn't be surprised if some folks out there would argue that Holy Bull (16-13-0-0 and BSFs at three of 122, 119 and 116; BSFs at two of 103 and 101 compared to American Pharoah's 101 and 101) was better than American Pharoah. And Omaha was beaten a nose in England on turf in the Ascot Gold Cup, a 210-year-old event and arguably the most prestigious "stayers" race in the world at 2 1/2 miles. I'm not suggesting Omaha was better than American Pharoah (I don't think he was) but I can see how others might believe they were comparable. BTW, Omaha was never out of the money in his last 14 starts from two through four in the U.S. and UK. And he set track records at 6 1/2f at Belmont and 10f at Arlington.

foregoforever · 10-02-2016, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve R

I'm not suggesting Omaha was better than American Pharoah (I don't think he was) but I can see how others might believe they were comparable.

The point made wasn't whether Omaha and AP are comparable in terms of all-time rankings or ability. It was that their careers were "akin". Other than both winning the TC, there's nothing in common between their careers.

EMD4ME · 10-02-2016, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronsmac

It's not just American Pharoah's dominant record. It's the manner in which he won the majority of his races. Very few were ALLOWED TO BE competitive. Just my not so humble opinion.

Fixed that for ya